Thoughts on BlackHorn 209.......

[mrlnfshr1]

I shoot a mix of triple 7, BH209 and real Black powder. No, not in the same load , but at different times and in different guns. 777 is definitly cheaper than BH209, but I dont think the cost difference is significant enough to not shoot Blackhorn if you are getting the performance that you desire. For me, I like the fact that it doesn't give off as much smoke when fired, allowing me to see the deer's reaction at the shot, instead of waiting for the smoke to clear. Also, the need to clean the gun that evening after a single shot is eliminated, allowing me to deal with the gun at a more convienient time and location. As for the pricing and the HazMat fees, remember that a single hazmat fee covers your entire order up to 25 lbs, including BH and any other subs, primers, and I believe, any paints or chemicals etc that also need a hazmat fee.( Real Black has to go by itself though). So, while it may be expensive to just order a bottle to try, if you shoot more than a couple hundred rounds per year, by the time you order a few jugs of assorted powders and primers, the $22.50 haz mat fee is split up enough per unit that you probably saved money overall by ordering.

 

[UtahRob]

You wouldn't book a 7 day, $10,000.00 elk hunt & go with 20.00 boots would ya?

NOPE would never go on a 10,000 $$ hunt to begin with . But if i did and its costing me $10,000 there better be horses , i better not have to walk all those 7 days !! LOL So Them 20.00 boot should do just fine . Never paid more than 75.00-80,00 for a pair of boots and i am 6'6'' 250 lbs and a size 15 . TRY finding them on sale , i wish i could find a 20.00 pair of boots .

Plus i don't consider 777 to be like a cheap pare of boots It's GOOOOOD stuff !! :

 

[richdeerht]

I use BH209 in my Encore. Very accurate, reliable ignition. In my Disc Elite and my Black Diamond XR, I use 777 because it ignites more reliably at lower temperatures, and is accurate.

First rule of muzzle loading is the gun must go BANG.

 

[Lee 9]

For a long time we looked for the cause of crud rings from 777 with out much success as far as I could tell, I tried just about every thing any body came up with and still had a large hard crudring that was very difficult to get out. I actually discovered some useful thing while looking but never an answer to crudring. Now I am beginning to wonder if altitude might have something to do with it Sabot loader is relatively high while I am close to sea level he has very little crudring while I have so much that it is not practical for me to use the stuff. My crud ring was so bad I was delighted to pay the extra for something that shot good with out any crudring.
Perhaps you all can fill out the information gap, would any one that has had bad crudring consistently would tell us at what elevation they have it at. Lee

 

[james 14]

I'm in fl about as close to sea level as you can get in regards to your test. I'm not sure how bad is bad but I do notice the crud ring. A spit patch knocks it out so long as I work the rod and don't just shove it in (clean minds here guys ) It doesn't bother me but it is rather noticeable.

 

[ronlaughlin]

My omega gets a bad crud ring when shooting 777. The elevation where i shoot is 4600 ft.

 

[sabotloader]

Lee 9

I have know real good idea why???

But I still think it is a combination of what might be in the bore and react with the sugar based powder... including what is captured in the pores of the bore and even the maybe the humidity....

When i sent Grouse that Vision I had here and shot on a few range trips - then cleaned.... I am sure he indicated he had no problem with the crud ring and he was probably shooting @ 600' elevation. He did swab betwen shots.

In my case I do run a patch between shots... but for me - i gotta do something to kill time and allow barrel cooling... Hunting - I can load up to 4/5 shots with out running a patch if it were necessary...

I also remember MLKieth saying that his Omega cruds up something terrible and I think he is in a high dry Arizona...

so-i-doe-not-no

 

[Lee 9]

Sabotloader
What do you use in your barrel between the times you take it out to shoot?

 

[sabotloader]

Lee 9

I THINK one of the big contributors to the crud ring is teflon... If the oil you might use or have used in the bore were to contain teflon it may contribute to the formation of the ring. Teflon is a very common bore oil additive...

The one thing that i really feel is important is get everything out of the bore - including what is stored in the pores. The only way I know to do that is to heat and flush the barrel, then treat the hot barrel with a good bore oil. I use slip 2000 (synthetic oil) or Montana Xtreme these days - neither of this contain teflon. It seems important to me that this be applied to bore while it is hot so that it will get absorbed into the pores of the bore. It seems like it takes my 3/4 of these treatments to get the bore conditioned. Then after that I only repeat the process maybe twice more in a year. You can usually feel when it is time to strip again because the pores start filling with residue and the ring starts forming faster and heavier.

I have no idea if this is an answer - it is all speculation on my part, but it certainly seems to help my guns. I think if I remember right I shot 16 consecutive 110 grain T7 loads from the White with a 209 primer before I had to patch the bore.

 

[cell]

SabotLoader,

Is there a in depth instructions on your barrel conditioning method here on the forums?

I read the same thing about Teflon a while back.Just the other day I noticed my gun oil has Teflon in it too...rem oil.
I did notice that 3f of triple7 gave very little,or no crud ring compared to their pellets.I'm at sea level...well 64 feet above it.


Cell

 

[sabotloader]

cell

I do have a write up and it in this board but i would need to altered it - it as written when I first started (8/9 years ago) when i was using Bore Butter and Birchwood bore oil? If you find it everytime it mentions bore butter scratch and replace it with slip 2000.

Bore butter really worked well for me but after finding slip 2000 the butter went out the door...

I read the same thing about Teflon a while back

It is my belief, and I am really just a shooter - nothing else- I really feel that the burning teflon or even burning fossil oils can create rough spot in the bore where the heat is the greatest temp and then a place place for the crud ring to grip and form.

When teflon is burned it creates an acid gas but I can not remember what the name of the gas. Most modern day target shooters would/will never put teflon in their bores. For the average centerfire shooter it probably makes no difference...

 

[cell]

Thanks.Ill take a peak,and see if I can find it.

When teflon is burned it creates an acid gas but I can not remember what the name of the gas. Most modern day target shooters would/will never put teflon in their bores. For the average centerfire shooter it probably makes no difference...
_________________

This is exactly along the lines I read.

 

[stinkworm]

I have outstanding results with BH 209 and since I just shelled out a small fortune on a prohunter last year I will not rot the barrel with blackpowder or any other of the subs. Not saying that if the gun is properly cared for that would happen. After killing an animal close to dark, by the time I get the animal taken care of, I may or may not have the time to clean my front stuffer. The convenience of BH to me is worth the added cost.

 

[Lee 9]

Sabot loader,
That might well be, I used that system with BB and it worked well with the original sabots from TC with a wad base I could shoot all day with out wiping and not loose accuracy. I eventually went to different sabots as the wad base [breakaway] were limited to 100gr RS. After that I switched to Remoil which does have Teflon and season the barrels with it the same way and I get crudring worse than anyone else I know of. I have to expect to brush and scrub for 5 minutes to get one crud ring out,and thats using Windex with vinegar or windshield washer with alcohol or citrus soap with water.

 

[sabotloader]

Lee 9

Remember I can only address my myself here, but I think you would find that you would have much better luck using the original wndex with ammonia in your bore vs the windex with vinegar. Ammonia is a metal stripper and cleaner, it works very well on steel and it evaporates faster than vinegar. Often people fear to use windex with ammonia becasue they think it might pit their bores.... fact is the amount if ammonia in windex os really pretty small when you consider the amount of ammonia in Butches or other Bore cleaners.... Ammonia is a natural for cleaning bore - that is why it is used in most bore cleaners.

I think the big fact here is if the bore does not have oils or residue for the heat of shooting T7 the 'crud ring' will not have any thing to cling to and it will take much longer to build up. Patching with regular blue windex with ammonia reduces the chances, even saliva has some acidity and will help.

To ease my fears of ammonia I go back to a statement by Dan Lilja - who makes high grade target barrels and replacement barrels:

Dan Lilja of Lilja Precision Rifle barrels has never seen any damage in one of his barrels caused by the use of ammonia. Dan writes: "The rumor is that copper-removing cleaners with ammonia will pit and damage the interior surface of a barrel. Ammonia is very effective as a copper remover. We use solvents, such as Butch's Bore Shine, to remove copper during the break-in. We routinely leave Butch's solution in the barrel over night too. Again, I repeat, we have never seen a problem with ammonia in the concentrations found in commercial cleaners, in either our chrome-moly or stainless steel barrels. This includes examination with our borescope." Black powder enthusiasts have universally praised Dan's personal favorite barrel cleaning solvent, "Butch's Bore Shine."

just my thoughts.... again I do not no why - but the 'crud problem' is nearly non-existent for me....

Wednesday - went out to the farm - grabbed Renegade 50cal 1/48 - I wanted to test shooting some Lehigh's from a 1/48. I took 15 shots using anywhere from 70 to 100 grains of T7-2f... I did patch between shots and never really felt a heavy crud build up. I did feel the beginning of a crud ring on shot and three but after that not much of anything - in fact I used the same slightly damp windex patch for the all 15 shots... Never did run a dry patch...

 

[sabotloader]

Just read this over on 'Doug's'...

I think we all have discussed this before about leaving BH residue in the bore... but....

bteague

I bought a new Knight Disc Extreme in July.BH209 is the only powder i have used in th rifle.I normally clean after every session.Last weekend I fired 6 shots.My son and his family stopped by.So i put it away and forgot to clean it.BIG MISTAKE.There was just as much rust as any powder i have ever used.The barrel is actually pitted.Im so disappointed in myself and bh 209.Actually im disgusted.After all the hype about this powder.I will use up what I have.But i will not waste the money on it after that.IF YOU ARE USING BH209 KEEP A CLOSE WATCH!!!!!!.It may buy you a day or two be fore you clean.But i would not go much longer.Billy

 

[Lee 9]

I wonder what he cleans with? I have left mine for days in fact I left it dirty for 2 weeks as a test and the humidity runs high here on the down wind side of Greers Fairy Lake, nothing showed. Normally I clean any gun I shoot after I get home always have. I have seen posts where others have tested it this way to. I have never even had any problem with 777 or Pyrodex.

 

[sabotloader]

Lee 9

I really do not know what he uses ( I do now after re-checking 'Doug's') Hoppes #9, but I do see on the Western site that they also do not recommend leaving a bore uncleaned when using BH - but I really think that is normal thought even with a centerfire.

Again I think it might go back to what is in the bore, as you know I shoot T7, in fact I will shoot my rifle in SepyOct to check POI, patch it with a windex patch - run a very light patch of slip or montana - reload and go huntign again - i really do not clean the gun until the end of the season. i have never had a problem either.

Interesting discussion going on....

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com ... hread=2569

 

[earnhard3]

I use hoppes #9...hmmm

 

[sabotloader]

earnhard3

A lot of people do... so do not get to concerned... I wonder what else might have gone wrong.... I am wondering and it might be what Lee was trying to get to... how well was it cleaned after the initial shooting - not the last shooting?

I also use Hoppes at times but I do not use it for storage or long term protection...

If you leave Hoppes in the bore for exteneded perios it will continue to work in the bore - leaching residue out of the pores - this material could possibly cause a rust.

The direction contain a warning about storeage over time...