Muzzy Journey: Step 2 + FNG powder ponderings...

[MtnManTy]

Update for those who care...

After the great advice found on these forums, I opted for a Knight UL .45. Then, low and behold, not only was there one for sale in the classifieds, but it was within driving distance! Clearly meant to be. Green stock, nitride finish, #11 cap ignition, and a pile of extras! Excited to get started!

Now the dilemma...

Gun came with 150+/- #11 caps, but I had previously been stocking up on BH 209. I'd love to convert it to 209s & BH, but to the tune of $163.99 for the conversion kit, so I'm thinking... Why not use them and upgrade later?

With that in mind, would you rather...

1) use an #11 friendly bp sub powder (leaning T7 3Fg, plus it's cheaper than BH) until converting to 209 bolt/plug, or deciding the T7 is good enough for me
2) screw substitutes, order real BP (wishful thinking?) in bulk and never look back
3) get creative and cautiously test a duplex bp load (#11 lights T7 which then ignites BH209... Reasonable, or should I be institutionalized?)
4) don't over think it. Order the conversion kit, and light that BH like it's the 4th of July

I appreciate the advice, and while this is partly in the spirit of friendly banter, I am curious what you guys n gals think.

 

[deermanok]

Shoot what you have now. Triple 7 3f will work fine.

 

[MtnManTy]

Shoot what you have now. Triple 7 3f will work fine.

That was what I was leaning towards, but a few cold ones and a little web surfing, and I got curious

 

[deermanok]

That was what I was leaning towards, but a few cold ones and a little web surfing, and I got curious

I'd probably get the conversion kit somewhere down the road, just to have it. Giving yourself another option if needed.

 

[ElDiablo]

Nothing wrong with 777 and #11s.

 

[FredB]

I've only ever used #11 caps, as my state doesn't allow BH or primers. And I'm happy with them. Personally had bad experience with T7, so now I stick to Pyrodex. Your results may vary. I've never even seen real black in a store. If I could, I'd like to try BH209, as it's supposed to be cleaner, but I don't really feel like I'm handicaped without it.

Mixing powders sounds like a bad idea to me. I would refer you to Knight's manual, or call and ask them about it.

Also, a couple tins of caps don't cost all that much, assuming you can find them. I wouldn't make the decision based on that.

 

[MtnManTy]

I'd probably get the conversion kit somewhere down the road, just to have it. Giving yourself another option if

I've only ever used #11 caps, as my state doesn't allow BH or primers. And I'm happy with them. Personally had bad experience with T7, so now I stick to Pyrodex. Your results may vary. I've never even seen real black in a store. If I could, I'd like to try BH209, as it's supposed to be cleaner, but I don't really feel like I'm handicaped without it.

Mixing powders sounds like a bad idea to me. I would refer you to Knight's manual, or call and ask them about it.

Also, a couple tins of caps don't cost all that much, assuming you can find them. I wouldn't make the decision based on that.

If the caps lit the BH reliably, it'd be a done deal. And duplex loads are somewhat common, I think more typical for smokeless and black powder combos, if I went down that road there'd be no smokeless involved. More research required before I seriously consider that avenue.

For now, I think the simplest solution is to use a substitute other than BH to start, and see where the ride goes from there. The previous owner used real BP only, but that might be hard to come by at the moment.

 

[deermanok]

If the caps lit the BH reliably, it'd be a done deal. And duplex loads are somewhat common, I think more typical for smokeless and black powder combos, if I went down that road there'd be no smokeless involved. More research required before I seriously consider that avenue.

For now, I think the simplest solution is to use a substitute other than BH to start, and see where the ride goes from there. The previous owner used real BP only, but that might be hard to come by at the moment.

I can't get real black powder locally, so I have to order online.
Graf&Sons or Buffalo Arms are two sources I use.
Grafs has a 4 pound minimum for online orders. Not sure about Buffalo.
You pay shipping and hazmat fees per order, so get enough to make it worth while.

 

[45-70]

I can't get real black powder locally, so I have to order online.
Graf&Sons or Buffalo Arms are two sources I use.
Grafs has a 4 pound minimum for online orders. Not sure about Buffalo.
You pay shipping and hazmat fees per order, so get enough to make it worth while.

NMLRA has BP also but must be a member

 

[ElDiablo]

3) get creative and cautiously test a duplex bp load (#11 lights T7 which then ignites BH209... Reasonable, or should I be institutionalized?)

If I were considering a duplex. I’d use real black to ignite Bh209. Been talked about here many times. (Never heard of anyone trying 777 and Bh209.)

But, since you’re new to muzzleloading, I’d keep it simple and stick with 777 for a while. Then buy a 209 conversion kit and shoot Bh209.

 

[Ninering62]

If I were considering a duplex. I’d use real black to ignite Bh209. Been talked about here many times. (Never heard of anyone trying 777 and Bh209.)

But, since you’re new to muzzleloading, I’d keep it simple and stick with 777 for a while. Then buy a 209 conversion kit and shoot Bh209.

I have safely & successfully used T7 as a duplex to ignite BH209 w/a #11 cap in a sideock, but its nothing I'd recommend to any novice to atempt at all.

 

[Jitterbug]

I agree with the “keep it simple” camp. I’ve been shooting BP for years, and have “less than no interest” in fooling around with duplex loads, etc.

When I bought my first Omega (my first inline) almost twenty years ago, I bought every combination of powder, primer, projectile I could find.

Loaded up a 250 gr. Hornady SST in a sabot w/the tail for the pellets, two T7 pellets, and a Winchester 209 primer. Shot a 2-3” group from the bench, with peep sights. Then I killed a deer with one shot. Then I looked at my big box of crap, wondering why I had bought all that stuff!

Shoot Triple7 or Pyrodex until you get your feet under you, and know what you’re doing. There have been a lot of nice groups (and deer) shot with both.

Don’t end up buying “two of everything, three of most.” Work on basics, like load development with one propellant, 1-2 kinds of caps, and 1-2 projectiles.

Don’t pass over “very good” while searching for “perfect,” especially right out of the gate.

If you’re OCD, or a perfectionist… muzzleloading can become an albatross around your neck- SO many things to explore! Start simple, get lots of shots downrange. Learn about the T7 crud ring, and read here about folks’ cleaning regimens.

First time I felt a T7 crud ring developing in my barrel, I knew EXACTLY what it was, thanks to reading early forums. Scrubbed it out before it got bad, and kept on shooting.

Don’t be afraid on “real” black powder. The HazMat fees stink, but just order enough pounds to amortize the cost. With BH209 often selling for $90 per 8 ounces, it doesn’t take many $25 pounds of Swiss or Schuetzen to amortize that $40 HazMat fee! Better yet, get on email lists for the sellers, and grab it while someone is having a “no HazMat fee” promotion!

Keep it simple, make lots of smoke, and get lots of rounds downrange. Plenty of time to go down rabbit holes, later!

 

[michiganmuzzy]

love to convert it to 209s & BH, but to the tune of $163.99 for the conversion kit, so I'm thinking...

Lots cheaper to get them from Sportsman's Warehouse.

https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting...-full-plastic-jacket-conversion-kit/p/1508872

Or

https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting...sories/knight-mountaineer-209-conv-k/p/p62025
I prefer the red jacket kit and SSKs breech plug and bare primer adapter.
The Mountaineer bolt and breech plugs also fits in the UL, btw, and vice-versa.

 

[anonymouscowherd]

I got into muzzle loaders to shoot real bp

Id bet you can sell your bh209 for more than enough to cover buying a few pounds of real black and paying hazmat etc

 

[MtnManTy]

Lots cheaper to get them from Sportsman's Warehouse.

https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting...-full-plastic-jacket-conversion-kit/p/1508872

Or

https://www.sportsmans.com/shooting...sories/knight-mountaineer-209-conv-k/p/p62025
I prefer the red jacket kit and SSKs breech plug and bare primer adapter.
The Mountaineer bolt and breech plugs also fits in the UL, btw, and vice-versa.

Holy smokes, I'll say!

 

[MtnManTy]

I got into muzzle loaders to shoot real bp

Id bet you can sell your bh209 for more than enough to cover buying a few pounds of real black and paying hazmat etc

There might be something to that! I got some T7 to start with, certainly not opposed to real bp, kinda wanting a flinter at some point... Certainly some possibilities there!

 

[deermanok]

There might be something to that! I got some T7 to start with, certainly not opposed to real bp, kinda wanting a flinter at some point... Certainly some possibilities there!

Shuetzen or Swiss are the only black powders available today. Goex went out for a while but new owners are starting production again. It's starting to become available in some places.
I believe that Swiss is the most premium brand you can get.
I'd recommend 3f for a good all round powder.