Triple 7 "Cleaner" hahahahahahahahah

[RobRed]

Regarding flintlocks, I'm curious which powder substitute is preferred if Black Powder isn't available ... T7 comes in granulation sizes up to FFFg.
Been starting to feel the flintlock fever also, though I'll always have aortic room for my modern inlines. Been eyeballing the Kibler Long Rifles often mentioned on our sister site, The Muzzleloading Forum.

I have no hands on experience with flintlocks so take this with a grain of salt.

From what I hear, keep the substitutes out of your flint lock. BP is more easily ignitable than the substitutes and the consensus is the subs wont work well, or at all in a flint lock. I'm sure a foul weather hunting scenario would make this even worse.

I plan to mail order BP to get going

 

[BigBoresmokepole]

I agree 100% with Encore. I’ve shot both t7 and bh209 and t7 definitely cleans up faster and with less patches than bh209 bh209 definitely doesn’t leave a crud ring if you can get it to ignite every time. Way too finicky for me to hunt with.

It cleans up faster than bh does. So do whitehots pellets to

 

[DavidAR10T]

I just might have a defective gene, because I hate T7 with a hot hate.
I'll live with cleaning BH209 with classic H#9 or Montana X-treme BH209 solvent.

 

[MrTom]

I just might have a defective gene, because I hate T7 with a hot hate.
I'll live with cleaning BH209 with classic H#9 or Montana X-treme BH209 solvent.

I pretty much in your camp David, but I do use t7 granular at the range and just swap cleaning tactics. Not a biggie for me.

 

[sabotloader]

You guys talking about bore cleaning! I clean both the same way with basically same number of patches. This not rocket science

This cleans the bore spic and span!

 

[bronko220002]

So much BS about BH209 being a clean burning powder with no swabbing necessary between shots. Hogwash! I swab between shots regardless of what powder I use, BH209, T7, Pyro, Black MZ or real BP if only for consistency. Blackhorn 209 leaves just as much fouling in the barrel as any other.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I can get equal or better accuracy with any of the other subs if I put the work into load development (same as I'd have to do with BH209) and with less recoil. I have 2 cans of BH209 that I use in my Knight Mountaineer .45 but once its exhausted I won't get any more.
I haven't worked much with T7 and I have a couple pounds I picked up on sale at Walmart at end of year. I'll have to give it a go one of these days.

 

[bronko220002]

Yep, folks make all kinds of claims against Triple Seven. Triple Seven is much less corrosive than either black powder or Pyrodex.

The solution: After firing Triple Seven or anything else, properly clean your gun. If your gun is rusting you ain't properly cleaning/preserving the thing.

You guys talking about bore cleaning! I clean both the same way with basically same number of patches. This not rocket science

This cleans the bore spic and span!

Mike I do pretty much the same thing unless I'm shooting real BP. That get a soap and water wash and water rinse.
I found that no matter how clean my patches come out, if I run a patch of Montana Xtreme Cowboy Blend down the bore, I always get a bit more out of the barrel. I don't know where it comes from but it ends up on the patch! Then a couple dry patches and them Montana Xtreme Bore Conditioner.

 

[ElDiablo]

Blackhorn 209 leaves just as much fouling in the barrel as any other.

 

[bronko220002]

Why do you look so confused?

 

[ElDiablo]

Well….of course fouling levels are influenced by a number of factors, but in general, 777 leaves exponentially more crap in the bore, IME, than BH209.

Here’s an example of the fouling left after one shot of 115 grV 2F 777. This is two passes with a brass brush and then dumped out. That’s a different universe from BH209.

Edit: 115 gr not 100 gr

 

[sabotloader]

ElDiablo, I have never ever seen a collection of fouling like that even after firing 15/20 shots at a range session. Really that looks like you had a partial ignition or the powder or bore were wet. In fact that looks like the bulk of your load!

The patches I showed were after a range session shooting 15/20 loads of 120 gr. of T7!

In a normal situation I have never encountered something like that let alone after shooting 1 shot. You do have a problem!

 

[ElDiablo]

Problem? Perhaps. That’s a lot of fouling even for 777. But not unusual with some load combinations.

 

[ronlaughlin]

So much BS about BH209 being a clean burning powder with no swabbing necessary between shots. Hogwash!

Blackhorn definitely does not require swabbing between shots. That is why many prefer it for hunting, and use other powders at the range.

Blackhorn generates plenty of fouling, but Blackhorn fouling seems to be a lubricant, and the fouling actually makes it easy to load bullets.

Triple seven fouling makes it harder to load bullets, and requires one to swab between shots, if one uses shotgun primers.

Blackhorn does not require one to swab between shots.

Blackhorn requires one to use a properly designed breech plug if one desires reliability.

Pricing of Blackhorn is absurd.

Blackhorn is not noticeably more accurate in my rifles, than other powders.

Blackhorn does not require one to swab between shots.

 

[ENCORE50A]

ElDiablo, I have never ever seen a collection of fouling like that even after firing 15/20 shots at a range session. Really that looks like you had a partial ignition or the powder or bore were wet. In fact that looks like the bulk of your load!

The patches I showed were after a range session shooting 15/20 loads of 120 gr. of T7!

In a normal situation I have never encountered something like that let alone after shooting 1 shot. You do have a problem!

I'm in agreement.

Having shot the BP Xpress with T7M pellets, not loose, at 180grs, I've never seen fouling as shown in the photo. Even the video I posted (#11) and after 25 rounds, doesn't show that. Somethings' not right, but I don't believe its the propellant.

 

[BigBoresmokepole]

Well….of course fouling levels are influenced by a number of factors, but in general, 777 leaves exponentially more crap in the bore, IME, than BH209.

Here’s an example of the fouling left after one shot of 100 grV 2F 777. This is two passes with a brass brush and then dumped out. That’s a different universe from BH209.

View attachment 35891

That looks unburnt powder that stuck in rifling or wet and or damp , I would switch out to different lot of powder and if still happening change to hotter ignition man that is alot of chit left in the bore / breach. Are you getting a crud ring in the breach?

 

[ElDiablo]

That looks unburnt powder that stuck in rifling or wet and or damp , I would switch out to different lot of powder and if still happening change to hotter ignition man that is alot of chit left in the bore / breach. Are you getting a crud ring in the breach?

Significant crud ring. That’s most of what you see there, I think. No moisture. I think the “problem” is a hot 209 and no lube (sabot). Here’s three in a row that day.

 

[James Andrews]

I have no hands on experience with flintlocks so take this with a grain of salt.

From what I hear, keep the substitutes out of your flint lock. BP is more easily ignitable than the substitutes and the consensus is the subs wont work well, or at all in a flint lock. I'm sure a foul weather hunting scenario would make this even worse.

I plan to mail order BP to get going

I love T7.

 

[bronko220002]

Significant crud ring. That’s most of what you see there, I think. No moisture. I think the “problem” is a hot 209 and no lube (sabot). Here’s three in a row that day.

View attachment 35893

Diablo that's absurd! What gun are you shooting that out of? What is your charge. I just can't imagine that much fouling in a bore after one shot even if your bore was badly pitted to collect excess fouling. You have something else going on and it isn't the T7.
BibBore may have identified the issue. How old is the powder, did you try a different, newer, lot? IMO that is not fouling but unburned powder that was contaminated somehow.

 

[southdakbearfan]

I don’t get that much fouling after firing 3 loads with pellets, let alone a single load of loose powder.

 

[ElDiablo]

Diablo that's absurd! What gun are you shooting that out of? What is your charge. I just can't imagine that much fouling in a bore after one shot even if your bore was badly pitted to collect excess fouling. You have something else going on and it isn't the T7.
BibBore may have identified the issue. How old is the powder, did you try a different, newer, lot? IMO that is not fouling but unburned powder that was contaminated somehow.

That’s out of a Savage 10ml-II .50, with 250 gr TC Shockwaves, 115 grV (correction on original amount), Fed 209A, ~ 2030 fps. Powder was fine - no contamination. No pitting in the bore.

Here’s a comparison of the volume of fouling to the volume of powder used. It’s only a small fraction of the powder charge.

I’ll do some more testing and make a big post about this.