Guns Of The Mountain Men

[BP Addict]

I think not only did they bring their eastern rifles but many of them used the Trade Gun because it was inexpensive and available.

 

[Buck Conner1]

NW trade guns, along with European and American guns went west from the Eastern locations. Edward Tryon and his family were big players in this new found industry along with their hardware business supplying anything the westward movement needed. Still in business and original family owned they expanded their business to meet today's needs (one item is power outdoor equipment - dist. for most bands like Toro, Lawn boy, Ariens and so on). In the great great grandson's office hangs an original NW trade gun, Tryon rifles and pistols (all were supplied to the trade in the day). My family dealth with this firm for 20 years buying their outdoor equipment products as a major dealer on the main line of Philadelphia.

See: https://americansocietyofarmscollec...loads/2019/06/1998-B79-100-Years-of-Tryon.pdf

 

[Muley Hunter]

Buck.......The Sharon I just bought is actually a Trade Rifle. I first thought it was a Hawken because it has a couple of Hawken parts on it. Sharon sold the gun as a Trade Rifle with one wedge and a shorter 30" barrel.

So, it's more PC than a Hawken?

 

[Okie Hog]

The myth of the Hawken rifle was greatly enhanced by the release in 1972of the movie Jeremiah Johnson, starring Robert Redford.

 

[Muley Hunter]

Yup, it sure did. Just like "The River Runs Through It" with Brad Pitt got fly fishing going.

 

[burlesontom]

It doesn't look like burlesontom has visited this forum since Sep 20, 2019, but it's probably worth summarizing for others that have and will look at this thread.

Yep plmeek I haven't been here in a while and now its been a little over a year since you posted. Times gets away from you. I have been dealing with doctors and other things in life and as of December 2nd I went on full disability.

But I am glad to see so many replies and responses to my thread and corrections where I got things wrong. But learning more was the whole premise of the thread. And I have learned.

 

[plmeek]

Welcome back, burlesontom. Sorry about your health issues. I have some good friends that are dealing with health issues and it's sad to see. I can't do much but offer support and spend some time with them.

I wasn't intending to imply that you personally "got things" wrong. Just that a lot of the info on the internet like the website you linked is based on old research and is therefore a little out dated.

Most of the literature about Hawken rifles from George Ruxton to John Baird romanticized the Hawken rifle and built up a lot of myths about them. Charles E. Hanson Jr. in The Hawken Rifle may have taken the pendulum too far the other way, at least that is how a lot of people interpreted it. But newer research is swinging the pendulum back towards the middle. J&S Hawken rifles were present in the mountains earlier than Hanson thought and in greater numbers. The new stuff doesn't negate Hanson's research, just modifies some of his conclusions a little. Hanson was aware of some of it before he died and applauded it. Just as Baird applauded Hanson's book when it first came out.

And I agree that "learning more was (is) the whole premise of the thread".

 

[Buck Conner1]

But newer research is swinging the pendulum back towards the middle..... The new stuff doesn't negate Hanson's research, just modifies some of his conclusions a little..... And I agree that "learning more was (is) the whole premise of the thread".

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Boy, isn't this the truth on just about everything we read - old and new research has really changed the way we see things today. We are now seeing this on just about everything watched or read, history changes before our eyes, we just need to pay attention folks. Fun times ..... :thumbs up:

 

[Buck Conner1]

The myth of the Hawken rifle was greatly enhanced by the release in 1972of the movie Jeremiah Johnson, starring Robert Redford.

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Hollywood - got you to spend your money to go to the show ...... :coffee:

 

[burlesontom]

Welcome back, burlesontom. Sorry about your health issues. I have some good friends that are dealing with health issues and it's sad to see. I can't do much but offer support and spend some time with them.

I wasn't intending to imply that you personally "got things" wrong. Just that a lot of the info on the internet like the website you linked is based on old research and is therefore a little out dated.

Most of the literature about Hawken rifles from George Ruxton to John Baird romanticized the Hawken rifle and built up a lot of myths about them. Charles E. Hanson Jr. in The Hawken Rifle may have taken the pendulum too far the other way, at least that is how a lot of people interpreted it. But newer research is swinging the pendulum back towards the middle. J&S Hawken rifles were present in the mountains earlier than Hanson thought and in greater numbers. The new stuff doesn't negate Hanson's research, just modifies some of his conclusions a little. Hanson was aware of some of it before he died and applauded it. Just as Baird applauded Hanson's book when it first came out.

And I agree that "learning more was (is) the whole premise of the thread".

I never thought you or anyone else implied I got things wrong. Heck that why I started the thread. To learn. I like learning. A lot has been written about the Mountain Men, the Leatherstocking and Longhunters from the 18th century and most was correct but some is wrong information being handed down.

I would love to handle a real Hawken rifle. I doubt I ever will. I have got to hold and examine a real old BP rifle. It was pretty rough and the lock was broke. It was neat but I would have hated to carry it around. I am guessing it weighed between 10-11 pounds. The rifles we carry now feel like carbines by comparison.

I have read and learned enough about the 18th and early 19th century. I have a real desire to know more about the time from around 1840 and up to about 1880. The westward migration and wagon trains and the Oregon Trail and California Gold Rush. I have a lot of the Time/Life books that cover this period but am always looking for more.

My biggest health issue is I have mild diabetes but pretty severe neuropathy in my lower legs and feet. The Diabetes has caused the bones in my right foot to break down and my foot to collapse. Its called Charcot foot. It knocked me out of my job as an insurance adjuster because now I can no longer climb ladders or get on roofs. I am too unsteady on my feet to be on a roof. But it could be a lot worse. I deal with it. I am on full disability but am getting by. No real disposable cash anymore but thats OK.

It gives me more time to read and learn. Right now I am rereading by book on Danial Boone. Its a very interesting story.

https://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/34/9/2123

 

[Buck Conner1]

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My father had in his collection of rifles, trade guns and pistols made by Henry, H.E. Leman, Tryon, Hawken and others all purchased in the 1930's and 40's and so on. By today's prices they were cheap at $5 to $20 dollars and not that hard to find, the back woods had some real gems that would appear on our "Swap Days". My father would trade for your old blackpowder firearm in exchange you would get a new in the box Winchester 94 with a box of ammo in either 30/30 or 32 Spl. Dad and a half dozen friends from the phone company would run this event several times during the summer in West Virginia (usually near Wheeling) and come home with some really neat stuff. Not just guns but household goods to farming equipment too. :cheers:

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[Meaux Thompson]

H.E. Leman guns: Trade Rifles, Indian Trade Rifles and NW Trade Guns covered a lot of what was being used. Charles E. Hanson, Jr. showed me a late Leman NW Trade Gun that was still in flint 30 years way past the flintlock's prime (the paperwork showed it was purchased as is in the mid 1850's). Many of those that lived in the hills and mountains weren't interested in percussion guns, they could alway find rocks that would spark, percussion caps were questionable into the 1860's according to Hanson.

I have an original late H.E. Leman fullstock percussion 36 inch barrel in.50 caliber. Also have a original H.E. Leman halfstock percussion 30 inch barrel in .52 caliber. We used both of these for examples for GRRW Collector Association Leman guns.

GRRW LEMAN INDIAN TRADE RIFLE​

I reread this thread often. If I were to contract another rifle, GRRW Leman Indian Trade Rifle. Cool and a rare GRRW model.

 

[Meaux Thompson]

I hope you post some pictures of the gun when you get it.

After the stories, books and movies you would think Hawken guns were everywhere. But they weren't. They were in the deep minority compared to the other guns available. And it was surprising how many flintlock guns were ordered from Leman compared to the cap lock guns even as late as the 1860s. And for the price of one Hawken you could buy 4-6 Leman rifles.

I have been giving the Leman rifle at TVM a good looking at. Its a nice no frills rifle and that what I like. Will I get one? Who knows. I have to think about it. :scratch:

I have a Leman flinter from TVM, great rifle and well made. I live near Natches, personally visited them. Great folks. Mike

 

[Meaux Thompson]

TVM Leman .45 next to my GRRW CA J&S .54

 

[Buck Conner1]

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Just missed on an original later H.E. Leman percussion rifle on one of the antique dealers sites .....

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[Meaux Thompson]

Could you post a link to that auction site?
thanks

 

[Meaux Thompson]

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Just missed on an original later H.E. Leman percussion rifle on one of the antique dealers sites .....

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Could you post a link to that auction site?
Thanks

 

[Buck Conner1]

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...-paint-stock-circa-1840-.cfm?gun_id=100451903
https://ctfirearmsauction.com/auction_item/50-caliber-percussion-h-e-leman/
There are several auctions going on now for these rifles Mike.

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[drax05]

"They got it right in the movie The Revenant. Nothing but longrifle flintlocks in that movie".

The guns and gear was about the only thing they got right in the movie. The time of year, the story and most everything else was a farce. Too bad. That story had the potential to be the best mountain man movie ever made.

I believe members of the AMMA had a lot to do with getting equipment particulars and use right, nothing to do with the story line though.

 

[Buck Conner1]

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Saw several things done in that movie that was questionable, shooting the pistol several times without reloading? My brothers in the AMM saw different things in the fight sections that were not done correctly. That's Hollywood., been there done that and never could get them to correct an issue.

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