Guns Of The Mountain Men

[Buck Conner1]

Using an online inflation calculator a $25 Hawken in 2018 would cost $808.00 and an $8.00 Trade Rifle would cost $258.00. Whats funny is that these prices are sort of in line with what a good Hawken copy and a Traditions Hawken or similar rifle cost today. The cheaper guns are just as servicable and chosen based on the affordable price. Just like the choices shooters made way back then when buying a rifle.

UPDATE: Check your figures again, today a good quality reproduction Hawken 1/2 stock will be more in the neighborhood of $2,200.00 - 2019 prices. A kit from TOTW will be in the $900.00 range plus shipping. NW Trade Guns are close to the Hawken prices, parts and labor close by todays standards. I check prices at least once a week for the best deal on parts for customers (very good to excellent quality items). todays labor has been holding at $1,200.00.

When you mention Traditions you are not talking quality top of the line, on a scale of "Good", "Better" Best" they are average good and a far cry from best. I have received several emails from quality known builders about your comment.
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[Buck Conner1]

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I really wasn't referring to the reproduction guns but the original rifles. Here is what I found on another site.

Doc White of GRRW & GRRW.CA has handled Hawkens since the 1950's. Back then an original Hawken in good condition would bring $1,000 -$1,500. Today those same guns are in the $35,000 plus price range and up. If the Hawken was owned by someone famous the sky is the limit, then your looking at $50,000 and up, the Jim Gordon Collection has several of these in the higher prices. Medina's Hawken sold for a big price, Jim does not say how much. We have had one original Hawken (poor condition) back in the mid 1950's, my father traded it for two H.E. Lemans in good condition, then they got sold or traded for more guns.

Medina Rifle (reproduction by GRRW.CA) $3,000.00​

"Another early reference appears in a list of goods taken west by French Canadian trader and fur trapper Etienne Provost in 1829: “2 rifles, Hawkins ($25.00 each).” Those are just two examples (both notations appear in the book Supply and Demand: The Ledgers and Gear of the Western Fur Trade by Olsen and McCloskey). CORRECT

"For comparison, the price of a “trade rifle” (a rifle made for the fur trade, to be sold or traded to trappers, red or white) as made by Henry, Leman, Tryon or others could be purchased for around $12. At more than twice that amount, Hawken rifles were truly expensive guns". CORRECT

In the link I posted in the first post Leman rifles were shown to be priced around $7-8 not $12 like in quote above. Back then $4 was a lot of money. CORRECT

Using an online inflation calculator a $25 Hawken in 2018 would cost $808.00 and an $8.00 Trade Rifle would cost $258.00. Whats funny is that these prices are sort of in line with what a good Hawken copy and a Traditions Hawken or similar rifle cost today. WRONG

J&S Hawken (reproduction by GRRW.CA) $2,300.00
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From 2017 - 2019 a good set of parts to build a J&S Hawken rifle (example) have been in the $1000,00 range with S&H. Labor to assemble those parts will be in the $1.200.00 plus not including S&H. I deal with pricing every week for customers wanting a GRRW.CA muzzleloader.

Some of these guys on the Internet shouldn't post or guess prices on antiques or custom quality weapons when they are thinking of the less expensive firearm or edged weapon. This really pisses off the antique appraises of which I'm one also.

The cheaper guns are just as servicable and chosen based on the affordable price. CORRECT

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[plmeek]

Looks like Buck resurrected this thread from over a year ago. It got me to thinking and thought I would add my 2¢.

I really wasn't referring to the reproduction guns but the original rifles. Here is what I found on another site.

"Another early reference appears in a list of goods taken west by French Canadian trader and fur trapper Etienne Provost in 1829: “2 rifles, Hawkins ($25.00 each).” Those are just two examples (both notations appear in the book Supply and Demand: The Ledgers and Gear of the Western Fur Trade by Olsen and McCloskey). Other rifles were not generally named to this level of detail, but Hawken rifles (and some pistols) always seem to be mentioned by name. In other words, if it wasn’t a Hawken, it was just another rifle".

"For comparison, the price of a “trade rifle” (a rifle made for the fur trade, to be sold or traded to trappers, red or white) as made by Henry, Leman, Tryon or others could be purchased for around $12. At more than twice that amount, Hawken rifles were truly expensive guns".

In the link I posted in the first post Leman rifles were shown to be priced around $7-8 not $12 like in quote above. Back then $4 was a lot of money...

The $7-8 price for a Leman rifle was the price around 1850. In 1837 when Henry Leman got his first and only contract with the US government for rifles, the price was $14 per rifle.

Also in 1837, Henry Leman sent a sample rifle to the American Fur Company and told them he could make them similar rifles for $12 each. Prices for Leman rifles during the Mountain Man period were comparable to J Henry rifles and other Lancaster maker prices. As time went on, his operations grew, and through the economies of scale, prices for his rifles had dropped to the $7-8 range by 1850.

Just for comparison over this same period, prices for the top end Hawken rifles declined from the mid-$30's range to the mid-$20's range (see Hanson's Figure 6 below).

Prior to 1840, Leman rifles were more scarce in the west than Hawken rifles. Leman didn't start his business until 1834. Hanson, in the article cited above, said he made 250 rifles in the first year and possibly 50 of these went to St. Louis for the Indian trade. We don't know how many of the 500 rifles from the 1837 US contract went to the West. This contract was meant for Indians being relocated to Indian Territory (Oklahoma) and were mostly for the Cherokees.

The offer to make rifles for the AFC in 1837 was rejected, and Leman was never awarded a contract from them. It wasn't until after the AFC went bankrupt and broke up that he finally got contracts to make rifles for Pierre Chouteau Jr. & Co. (the successor to the AFC Western Dept.) and the Ewing Brothers of Fort Wayne, Indiana (competitors to the remnants for the AFC Northern Dept) in the 1850's, long after the time of the Mountain Man.

Ask about anyone what rifles the beaver trappers and mountain men carried with them and you will be told they carried Hawken guns made by Sam and Jacob Hawken in St Louis.

I thought so too. But a little more reading and google searching turned this up. I also stated in another thread that I also suspected that those eastern men who came west probably brought their eastern rifles with them and used them in the mountains. It looks like my guess was correct. And there were many more non Hawken rifles in the mountains than you would think. This article makes it sound like Hawkens were sort of scarce by comparison. Its a good read. Hope you like it.

Traditional Muzzle Loader - Rifles of the Mountain Men

http://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/B051_Hanson.pdf

This rifle maker also supplied a lot of the rifles used by trappers and explorers and supplied trade rifles to the government. Henry lemon supplied a huge amount of rifles for a long period of time until his death and the closing of his plant.

The initial premise of this thread, quoted above, makes it sound like there are only two possiblities concerning Hawken rifles--(1) every mountain man had one or (2) Hawken rifles were scarce.

More recent reaserch suggests the truth is something in between. The reference to Etienne Provost having a Hawken rifle in the mountains prior to 1829 pushes the date of the earliest known mountain man with a Hawken forward by several years from what Charles Hanson thought in The Hawken Rifle: Its Place in History. There is no record of Provost's purchase of this Hawken rifle, but 1827 would be the latest date that he could have acquired it. He was in St. Louis for the last half of 1827. By the spring of 1828, he was heading up the Missouri River and may have made it to the 1828 summer rendezvous on Bear Lake. He wintered with the Crows and probably visited Fort Techumseh late in 1828 for Kenneth McKenzie wrote a letter dated January 2, 1829 asking Pierre Chouteau, Jr. to send him "two rifles similar in all respects to the one made by Hawkins for Provost." Provost returned to St. Louis in the summer of 1829 and got married. In the August of 1829, Provost purchased 2 more Hawken rifles for $50. He left St. Louis not long after that for another season of trapping and trading in Crow country.

The Chouteau Papers include a keelboat manifest dated April 29, 1830 that included a case of 9 Hawken rifles and 2 lone Hawken rifles going up the Missouri River.

An AFC invoice for the 1834 rendezvous listed "10 steel mounted rifles," at $17.20 each (these are in all likelihood JJ Henry steel mounted Lancaster rifles), 30 Northwest guns, and "6 steel mounted rifles, Hawken," at $20 each.

Another AFC invoice for 1836 lists:
2 Am Rifle @$17.50 (most likely steel mounted Henry Lancasters)
7 " " @$11.00 (most likely brass mounted Henry Lancasters?)
8 Hawkins " from $20 to $26
2 Rifles Hawkins @$24
84 N. W. Guns @$4.50

An AFC invoice for 1837 lists:
36 N. W. Guns best quality @$4.50
5 Am. Rifles steel mounted @$19
10 Hawkens Rifles @$24
12 N W Guns @$4.50

These records only show the guns that the AFC was sending to the mountains and does not include any other rifles brought to the mountains by the Rocky Mountain Fur Co. and the various other groups that were competing with each other for the mountain trade.

It is interesting that looking at these numbers, the ratio of Hawken rifles to American or Lancaster rifles steadily increased in the 1830s and were 2 to 1 in 1837.

This reaserch since Hanson published his Hawken book shows that Hawken rifles were not scarce during the 1830s and were present as early as 1827/28. In fact, Hawken rifles beat JJ Henry rifles to the mountains and may have been as common as Henry rifles in the 1830s. Of course, there were likely other Kentucky rifles used by the mountain men than just Henry rifles, and these other Kentucky rifles would have been dominate in the 1820s.

One last note, based on Hanson's analysis of his Figure 6, these Hawken rifles priced at $24 and less were most likely full stock rifles. It's not clear how many were flint and how many were percussion. Provost's rifle that he acquired in 1828 would certainly been a flintlock. The same is likely for the Hawken rifles in the keelboat manifest of 1830. By 1834, some percussion Hawken rifles could have been present in the mountains. The numbers could have increased in the following years.

 

[Buck Conner1]

Thanks Phil, great reply on pricing. Wouldn't it be nice to see reductions in pricing today.

I'm going through the pricing of parts and kits for GRRW Collectors Association for updating their website right now for 2020. When comparing prices from 2017 most kits have gone up approximately $150.00 to $200.00 a kit. Now I'm looking at other suppliers for just pieces (parts) to keep the cost down and still have the best quality we can get at fair (good) pricing to the customer.

:cheers:

Here's what we are seeing from one supplier.

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To bad our retirements don't increase like these kits have ...... :thumbs up: :coffee:

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[msellers]

Yes the percussion cap had just been invented and wasn't in widespread use till 1830 or so. And the point of my post was that in the overall picture Hawken rifles were a bit player. The best of guns but just not enough of them to go around. Plus Hawken guns cost 4-6 times as much as guns from other makers.

Need to figure out how to get my hands on a copy of the archeological report again, but there were dug French Percussion caps at Ft. Davy Crockett in NW Colorado. Which was a fur trade era post, that was abandoned in 1827 as my memory stands. So this isn't entirely true; percussion was rare yes, but did exist quite a bit earlier than most say or believe.

 

[Buck Conner1]

Fort Davy Crockett, also called and better known as Fort Misery, was a trading post of the late 1830s and early 1840s. The site is located within Browns National Wildlife Refuses. Moffat County of Colorado. Unlike most trading posts within the confines of the current state of Colorado, Fort Davy Crockett was located west of the Rocky Mountains in what is now northwestern Colorado. The trading post was established between 1832 and 1837 by Phillip Thompson, Prewitt Sinclair, and William Craig. Made of adobe and cottonwood, it was described as a "hollow square of one story cabins, with roofs and floors of mud... Around these were found conical skin lodges of the squaws of the white trappers, who were away on their fall hunt. Here also were the lodges of Mr. Robinson, a trader." Due to "deplorable living conditions", some trappers called it Fort Misery or Fort de Misère. Kit Carson. Jim Bridger, Marino Medina and other mountainmen stayed at the trading post, which served many purposes. It was a place to trade furs for money or supplies, a social center, a tavern, and a lodge.

IN THE DAY It is described as being on the Green River and Vermillion Creek in the Brown's Hole area. TODAY It is also described as being off of Highway 318 and about one mile northwest of Ladore School, also known as Ladore Hall. Green River has changed its course over the years, making finding the exact location difficult.

By the winter of 1839, however, inhabitants were starving and resorted to purchasing dogs from Native Americans for meat. This was verified following an archaeological survey that found dog bones at the site. After a reduced demand for beaver fur, the trading post was abandoned by 1844.

View attachment 780
Rocky Mountain Rendezvous​

Many of the fur traders and trappers who passed through Fort Davy Crockett attended one or more of the sixteen rendezvous held between 1825 and 1840. This is William Henry Jackson’s interpretation of a Wyoming rendezvous, probably painted in the 1930s.

For those looking for this location there's a historical marker located at Lodore School, or Lodore Hall, in the wildlife refuge.

Have spent time in this location with other AMM brothers studying the history. :thumbs up: :coffee:

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[Buck Conner1]

"They got it right in the movie The Revenant. Nothing but longrifle flintlocks in that movie".

The guns and gear was about the only thing they got right in the movie. The time of year, the story and most everything else was a farce. Too bad. That story had the potential to be the best mountain man movie ever made.

Pickup a copy of "Black Robe" if your looking for how hard the times were, this one was done correctly. Talked to several of the guys in the movie, they had a hard time with the conditions, weather and what was asked of them to do. That's life if you do these types of things as they were done. :thumbs up:

 

[plmeek]

Thanks Phil, great reply on pricing. Wouldn't it be nice to see reductions in pricing today.

I'm going through the pricing of parts and kits for GRRW Collectors Association for updating their website right now for 2020. When comparing prices from 2017 most kits have gone up approximately $150.00 to $200.00 a kit. Now I'm looking at other suppliers for just pieces (parts) to keep the cost down and still have the best quality we can get at fair (good) pricing to the customer.

Wow! Those figures you showed indicate a 22% to 30% increase over the 2 or 3 year period for the parts set. You may see some additional increases because I've seen the lock companies and the barrel companies increase their prices after the new year.

I guess it reflects the law of supply and demand as the number of companies making/casting parts keep shrinking while the demand is stable or increasing. Certainly, the price increases are greater than background inflation.

Also, thanks for the detail on Fort Davy Crockett. Saves me from having to look it up.

 

[plmeek]

It doesn't look like burlesontom has visited this forum since Sep 20, 2019, but it's probably worth summarizing for others that have and will look at this thread.

Much of what is written in the link that burlesontom provided (at Traditional Muzzle Loader - Home) is based on Charles Hanson's book The Hawken Rifle: Its Place in History. That book is packed with some very important information. I've probably read it all or in part about a dozen times and still find some nuggets of information in it. The new research I cited above updates the earliest date of a known trapper with a Hawken rifle in the mountains and shows that they were present in a little greater numbers than Hanson was aware.

Hanson's primary conclusions from my reading of his book are:

• "less than ten percent [of the mountain men had Hawken rifles] in the 1820's, gradually rising to perhaps twenty-five percent by 1840."
• "Hawkens did not make a strong showing in the mountains until relatively late in the game and the visions we all had of hundreds of flint Hawkens is a 'will of the wisp'."
• "If I were estimating mountain man rifles in order of importance, I would list them thus:
  1. Lancaster rifle
  2. English rifle
  3. Other 'Kentuckies' in .45 to .55 caliber--Southern and Pennsylvania types
  4. J & S Hawken rifles
  5. New English rifle (last because it appeared so late in the game)."

The subsequent research I cited above could change his conclusions some.

• Hanson's estimate of 10% or less of the mountain men had Hawken rifles in the 1920's is still good, though...
• The new data shows Hawken rifles in the mountains earlier and more Hawken rifles going to the mountains in the 1830's than Hanson was aware of.
• By 1840, the number of Hawken rifles likely exceeded 25%.
• Hanson's comment about flint Hawken rifles appears to still be valid.
• The Lancaster "pattern" rifle was still the most common, but not just those made by the Henrys. One needs to include those made by other Lancaster makers. The subsequent research suggests that Hawken rifles were present in the mountains before JJ Henry rifles.
• The 1834, 1836, and 1837 AFC invoices for rendezvous goods list "American" steel mounted rifles that were likely part of the 70 that AFC ordered from JJ Henry. This suggests that AFC was wanting a lower cost option to the Hawken rifle which was gaining in popularity.
• Interestingly, these AFC invoices do not list any "English" pattern rifles which Hanson listed as number 2 in importance. If the English rifle was popular in the mountains, it must have been supplied through the Rocky Mountain Fur Co. and/or Bonneville, Wyeth, and the trappers out of Taos.
• At least for the trappers in the employ of the AFC, they seem to have been willing to pay the 60% premium for the steel mounted Henry "American" rifle and the roughly 100% plus premium for a J&S Hawken rifle. Price obviously wasn't their only consideration.
• Based on the prices quoted in the invoices, the J&S Hawken rifles the AFC sent to the mountains were nearly all full stock rifles.

The pendulum on the use of the the Hawken rifle by mountain men is swinging back toward the middle now. They weren't so rare after all!

 

[Buck Conner1]

As the years passed and further information was uncovered Charley Hanson had started leaning in the direction you stated. Old journals, sale sheets and factory records are helping to get a better picture as you say.

When I put together a list of every maker of NW Guns (built more then a 100 per year was considered agood start) came up with over 150 firms. Charley in his book had listed only 51 at the time of his writing "The North West Gun". I ordered a set of books - with each maker’s name and a partial description given for the builder of weapons (guns and edged) from King Aurthor to WWII by a German University, their books name is “Heer Der Neue Stockel Vol. 1 & Vol. 2”. These books were pricy at the time in the high $200's. I could figure out some of the information but was at a loss until I mentioned this to Bob L. (our old friend). Damn he's speaks and reads high and low German, made a trade - help me with who made guns for the North American market and these expensive books are yours. Bob took the deal with a smile on his face.

______________________________________________________________________
EXAMPLE: from “Heer Der Neue Stockel 1 “

BOND Edward James, London/GB, erw 1816 -1825. 45 Cornhill. Edward & William BOND. 1848-1858. 45 Cornhill + Hooper Sq. Goodman’s Fields; 1859-1870, 142 Leadenhall Str; 1871-1879, 4 Northumberland Str. dbw/East India Co. 1862-1870 /E & P BOND. - Edward William, London/GB, erw 1822-1873. 59 Lombard Str.

If you take a close look at this you can figure out for what you want to know.

BOND = surname Edward James, London / GB = this is pretty clear,
erw = era or time period 1816 -1825.
45 Cornhill. = street address
______________________________________________________________________

It's interesting on how things change as time passes on Phil. I'm glad we grew up close to the detailed information seen from the 70's to now. Folks you have some very good researchers (not just pretty faces) to ask questions on these old firms and the products produced a 150 years ago.

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[plmeek]

Buck, I wonder why some of the info on gun makers in your NW trade gun book was written in German since they were British makers. Now I know--your reference books were in German.

 

[toot]

I just read the book-CROW KILLER-LIVER EATIN JOHNSON. a great book that tells how the mountain men evolved with there guns. a must read, couldn't put it down!

 

[Buck Conner1]

Buck, I wonder why some of the info on gun makers in your NW trade gun book was written in German since they were British makers. Now I know--your reference books were in German.

According to Hanson this was some of the best available research done that he knew of (never said if he had them other than telling me to make the purchase).

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A must for anyone interested in or researching firearms makers in antiquity. Volumes 1 & 2 list makers alphabetically & examines proof marks in great detail with fine reproductions of known makers marks while the third volume concentrates on gunsmith activity city by city. German text but if you are only interested in makers names, places of origin & dates active then it won't present any problems. Often quoted from by dealers, becoming scarcer & fetching high prices....even at auction.

I checked all the normal sources for possibility a used set or even new for the heck of it - all sources are marked "Currently Unavailable". Bob L. got a hell of a deal.

A set of these books sold on Nov. 2018 for $850 plus $44 S&H .....

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[msellers]

This is insane, for 3 of the volumes only also.
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?tn=Heer+Der+Neue+Stockel

 

[Buck Conner1]

Probably priced for the market of researchers, anything in weapons like said from King Arthur to WWII. Just found a complete set at AbeBooks for US $1,660.80 plus shipping and handling. These books are at least close to 4 inches thick per each one.

 

[toot]

could the mountain men have read GERMAN?

 

[Buck Conner1]

There were several parties of Germans that worked for Astor.

John Jacob Astor was a German–American businessman, merchant, real estate mogul and investor who mainly made his fortune in fur trade.

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[afishhunter]

could the mountain men have read GERMAN?

No doubt some could. Others could probably read English, Scottish, Irish, Swedish, … or whatever was used wherever they were originally from, presuming they were literate.

 

[Buck Conner1]

With folks escaping the rules of the Eastern Countries and coming to the New World, if they didn't speak a language they soon learned a few works to get along. You start reading about the different fur trade companies you'll be amazed at how many were working the company camps as cooks, camp keepers or even trappers.

 

[Overdue Bill]

Wow, some of this stuff I had read before but it is some very interesting and informative reading.