Serious Non Accuracy Issue/54 Renegade/Conicals

[rost495]

Transferred from the newbie section to this one in hopes of more replies. Thanks, Jeff

Hi

Just so that I feel much better about my rifle and upcoming elk hunt I can get 54 balls into 2 inches at 100. I was hoping to have a 200 yard gun if needed. Not sure about a ball at 200 though.

Anyway I've shot short REAL, long REAL, TC maxi hunters and maxi balls, and something that is a bit more pointed than the maxi hunters. The conicals, if they make the target board at all(appx 4x6 foot at 100yards) are sometimes sideways and best groups are about 8-10 inches and vary up to almost 20 inches. Even if the hit point on.

I'm using real black du pont 2F. Anywhere from 80 to 100 grains, with and without wads. And trying to be very consistent on very firm seating pressure.

Its driving me nuts! It was a kit gun. Ser # 375XXX IIRC.

The bad thing is each time i go back to balls and 100 2F it'll dump em in the same spot around 2 inches or so. Thats without even monkeying with the load.

Now I'm open to all help. Lube is TC/whatever 1000. Its very hot here so its liquid lube basically. I am shooting CCI Musket caps and out of habit for accuracy I swab between shots.

I am what I'd call an above average iron sight shooter, averaging some years up to 10K rounds out to 1000 with post iron sights. So I don't think its me.

I don't have a rod with a swivel handle to where I can easily check the twist..... I'm assuming 48 twist and should shoot the conicals,especially TC ones just fine. I"ve checked the sights and have a peep in the rear and my front blade is milled to be flat and square sides and flat top so I can accurately aim.

Now I don't know if I should buy different conicals. Or should I swap to Pyrodex or 777 of which I have a bit of each.

I do think if ya'll will tell me how to figure out the right patch thickness, that I'll shoot a bunch of patched balls at 100 grains or so, maybe with wads to protect the patch and zero the gun in with them for the Sept hunt just to be safe.

Thanks for any input!!

Jeff

 

[BCS]

Are you using a cardstock or fiber wad under the bullet?

Your twist needs to be faster if the bullets are tumbling ....or try more powder.........don't be afraid to try lots of FFF also.

 

[rost495]

Both, with and without.

But if they are not stabilizing at 100 grains, will they stabilize at 120? And then exactly how long will they stay stable?? IE unstable as speed falls again at 150 yards?

I'm after 200 yard loads so there is more at stake than on the surface.

Ordered no excuses .5 ton bullets today(well not half a ton but 535 grains) and found some buffalo bullets the other day too that are not small.

I'm almost convinced this barrel is either not a 48 twist somehow or its just not gonna shoot conicals.

A question-- would 150 grains of 2F be safe with a big conical? Not sure I can handle the thump that well.... but having shot a few rounds at 120 and having no better luck than at 100, well you get the idea.

Not sure I have 3F in anything other than 777....

Jeff

 

[jaybe]

Hmmm - maybe cayuga will get on here and give you some sugggestions.
In the meantime, I think you can check your twist pretty close by pushing a patch down to the breech, then mark your rod with a pencil in line with the front sight. Also put a pencil mark at the muzzle. Now slowly slide it back out allowing it to twist with the rifling (even helping it slightly by twisting it so it doesn't slip). Assuming it's a 1-48" twist, it should do 1/2 twist in 24". Or just watch for it to reach 1/2 twist and measure how far it's come out - then double it. At least you'll know what your rate of twist is to start with.
Seems to me if it shoots roundballs that well, you ought to be able to find a conical that will shoot well also; they come in so many shapes and sizes.
Good Luck!

 

[wapiti wacker]

My guess would be that your gun is a 1:60 or slower twist,have you tryed buffalo ballets? The fact that your groups are 2" at 100 yds leads me to believe this.It is quite possible that your gun doesn't like conicals and is never going to shoot them no matter what.I personally would not hesitate to shoot an elk with a roundball and do out of my .50 cal guns if it is 100 yds or closer.

 

[cayuga]

A Renegade Kit gun was normally 1/48 twist. My oldest Renegade was a kit gun. I built it in 1980. It only has XXXX numbers on the barrel. Then again, there may have been some barrels that were 1-66 I could not say for sure.

The idea of shooting 200 yards with a conical and open sights I think is going to require some real luck. I have four Renegades in .54 caliber. They will shoot the R.E.A.L. 300 grain out to 100 yards but I've never tried them further then that. The 300 grain R.E.A.L. are all my friends and I hunt with, using our .54 caliber Renegades now. Most of our shots are 50 yards and closer. I personally limit myself because of my eye sight with open sights.

How old is your DuPont 2f black powder? The first thing I would do is change powders to see if that makes a difference. I would get some Goex 2f & 3f and try those powders. Triple Se7en works good on conicals but if you want to shoot conicals and Pyrodex, get the Pyrodex P. I have better luck with that.

I would then try the Maxi Ball, or the Buffalo Bullet Conical with new powder. They were and still are the best shooting of all conicals in two of my Renegades. I think with the twist you have, the No Excuse Conicals might just be a waste of money.

I have a flintlock Lyman Trade rifle that shoots the 405 grain Powerbelts excellent. The Trade Rifle has a 1-48 twist. Whether these would shoot well out of your Renegade, I could not say. All you can do is try. They would sure work on an elk. Still, I hate to suggest all these bullets because they are expensive and if they do not work, that always gets my goat. Then again, you might just have a rifle that shoots roundball and not conicals. It happens. Some rifles are just fussy. You might also want to try some of the Buffalo Ball-ets. This will increase the weight of your projectile while at the same time, fly like a roundball. This might be another alternative.

Are you using the felt Ox yoke lubed wads of fiber card wads? This might be the cause of the strange range results you are getting. I can sure understand why you are trying without wads.

As for lubes, Bore Butter, T/C 1000, what ever you want to call it, will start to break down in extreme heat. I use a home made lube made of bees wax, Murphy's oil soap and Castor oil which seems to stand up to the heat better. Plus I can custom the lube depending on the heat. I stopped using bore butter years ago.

I would reduce the powder charge and see what happens, and if that did not work, increase the powder charge. You could see what effect that would have. There just is no telling what will work for you.

To be real honest, I am stumped. I have never tried to shoot conicals that far out of my four Renegade rifles. I always limit myself because unlike you, I am not able to shoot further then that.

Maybe you should practice real hard with the roundball and then hope for luck and try to get with in 100 yards of your elk and poke a hole with them using that. I am certain that roundball placed in the right spot will get the job done.

 

[rost495]

Cayuga

Thanks for the input. Powder is old. Have not tried 3F because I have a case of 2 F. Anyway I'll try different. Funny that it seems to work with the balls though....

The 200 yard issue is only an issue for the fact that I'm testing at 100 and know that a 20 inch group at 100 ain't where its at. And won't work for 200. I"m hoping for a 2 inch or better group at 100 and then go see what it does at 200 to see if I can stretch it.... IE I've got all the distance issues figured and sorted. Just requires accuracy at 100 to have prayer at 200 or even 150.

As mentioned many times, I pray for 100 or even 50 yards. But its a long haul to go home MT handed because I was not ready or capable of shooting 150 yards.

Am using lubed felt wads, wonder wads maybe? I take it I should try cardboard wads too? Not that there has been any difference between wads and no wads...yet....

Seems like I"m as lost as I was to start with. I just wonder how I should proceed, there are so many variables. Pick one conical and run all kinds of powders through it?

Or can it be the lube? Though the balls and 1000 lubed patches work ok so far.

How does one know where to backtrack to start at? I'm thinking of just using all the REAL 305s first and just going pyro or 777 that I have and seeing what gives.

BTW Sent this note to No excuses and Dave says he'd be surprised if his won't work.

Could not figure out how to test the twist rate with a fixed rod but have that sorted out such that tonite I'll test that I hope.

Jeff

 

[tooldog]

Is this the rifle that you had the coating applied to the inside of the barrel?

tooldog

 

[cayuga]

This is one other option. I have 1-28 twist Green Mountain Stainless Steel barrels that fit right into the stock of your .54 caliber Renegades. I bought two of them. I only shot this one, and they are .50 caliber, but I was shooting at 70 yards with the standard open sights the other day, trying different projectiles. The maxiball are 370 grain and they seem to do real well. The green X were the maxiball and the blue X were the 495 grain No Excuse Conicals. The red X were from the day before.

Are sabot loads allowed where you're hunting? Some of the Renegades will actually shoot sabots pretty good. I know a person that shoots sabots out of his Renegade all the time.

Thanks for the input. Powder is old. Have not tried 3F because I have a case of 2 F. Anyway I'll try different. Funny that it seems to work with the balls though....

That would be my first suspect. Roundball are not as fussy because they react to pressure different then the conicals. For instance, Pinnacle 3f will shoot roundball excellent, but it will not shoot conicals worth a hoot. So the powder might well solve your problems. I like Goex 3f although I have been shooting my lead chunking White rifle with Triple Se7en 3f and having good results.

Am using lubed felt wads, wonder wads maybe? I take it I should try cardboard wads too? Not that there has been any difference between wads and no wads...yet....

Well they should work real well. I personally have been using fiber wads from Track of the Wolf. I also make my own felt wads and do not lube them since wool does not burn too easy. That way any excess lube is absorbed. I punch them out of construction felt with a hollow hole punch.

BTW Sent this note to No excuses and Dave says he'd be surprised if his won't work.

I've shot a lot of Dave's No Excuses. Out of the fast twist rifles they work really good. Out of the numerous medium twist rifles, the accuracy has been lacking to say the least. The trouble is you never know until you try them. That holds true with any projectiles. The faster the twist, the longer the projectile is the rule of thumb. All you can do is try them. I've never shot them out of my Renegades because they all are .54 caliber and I never bought any other then .50 caliber.

Seems like I"m as lost as I was to start with. I just wonder how I should proceed, there are so many variables. Pick one conical and run all kinds of powders through it?

I always start at the basics when trying to figure out a rifle. A friend was over one day with a Tradition's St. Louis Hawkins. No matter what load he shot, the accuracy and the igniton was terrible. I put a hot shot nipple on the rifle and still no accuracy. I finally asked him how old the powder was and he said ... maybe seven years old. I switched him to a can of Goex and it tuned right in. After the powder I would look at the lube and then the wad... just my opinion is all here.

How does one know where to backtrack to start at? I'm thinking of just using all the REAL 305s first and just going pyro or 777 that I have and seeing what gives.

that might be a start. I cast my own R.E.A.L. conicals and also for all my local friends.

Could not figure out how to test the twist rate with a fixed rod but have that sorted out such that tonite I'll test that I hope.

Put a cleaning jag on your ramrod. Then put a very tight patch on the jag and push that to the bottom of the barrel. Take some white out and mark the barrel and the ramrod together. Then around the top of the ramrod, put a tight nylon string or a shoe string and pull the ramrod back out using the string. The Renegade has a 26" barrel. If the mark happens to make about half a turn it should be a 1-48 twist

 

[rost495]

Tooldog

Yes same coated barrel. But i dont' think the coating has anything to do with it since I had not shot it at all prior to coating so have no history. And all the folks I talked with, including the guys I know at the AMU, well the coating can't hurt anything accuracy wise. And it does shoot ok with round balls so far.

Cayuga

Thanks for a detailed answer. Gives me a better idea of where to head. I have fairly new pyro and 2 year old 777. I have no local source of ANY powder so will have to test this and go from there.

The Green mountain is an option, probably not for this year hopefully. Not much interested in a 50 though for this use. Hopefully things will work out.

Guess I'll just see on Daves bullets. I'll sure let him know he was wrong if they don't shoot vs the twist I'm gonna go check out right now.

Again I appreciate a reply that touches all the notes.

Jeff

 

[rost495]

Test 1 confirms 48 inch twist.

 

[cayuga]

I will be interested to see how the .54's handle the No Excuse Conicals for you. I have four Renegades and three other traditional rifles in that caliber not to mention matching barrels for four more made by Green Mountain Barrel Company. I hope they shoot excellent. And maybe they will... who really knows. My next barrel will be a 32 or 40 caliber.

I've tried the .50 calibers with one of my Hawkins, and a couple Traditions 50 caliber I have. While they did "all right" I was not really impressed. But as I said, with open sights, I have found lately that my distance shooting is really suffered. I might even start to limit my open sight shooting to 70 yards. After that I get some focus problems with sights, and targets... Must be old age.

 

[BCS]

According to 'the greenhill formula' a 1-48 sould do just fine.
http://www.mountainmolds.com/helpGreenhill.htm

As just keep the bullet under an inch long.

 

[rost495]

Dave et al

I've done more shooting than most folks I know but all CF and a smidge of SB. I've found over the years in CF its much better to "overstabilize" than to understabilize.

We'll see when the big boys get here and I'll shoot newer powder in between.

As to your vision-- I don't know that I can help you but I can tell you there are a few items out there that can help you if you are so inclined to do the work and spend the money.

First you can probably figure a way to get a rear peep sight with a hood. IF you can( I haven't checked the threads on peeps for BP but assume I could find one that fits) then you can have a custom lens ground to focus on the front sight or just beyond. That can stay in the hood. You can buy a merit disc for your glasses that will allow you to adjust the opening or diopter that your eye looks through till things become sharper. It works wonders!!! Finally you can get a front sight that instead of a post is a circle or aperture. Either metal or acrylic. It takes some getting used to but the bullet hits the center of the circle and the human eye basically automatically lines circles up.
Another advantage of a merit disc either in the rear sight or suction cupped to your glasses is that its concentric IE open it all the way or close it down and if you shoot enough your zero won't change. Which allows a narrow aperture for clarity during light hours and rip it wide open for an early or late shot up close, like a ghost ring.
And do NOT forget that the front sight is the most important thing for you to focus on. Much more so than the target. Took me a long time to believe and learn that but it is so. I don't worry about focusing on the animal but the sight. Of course you have to know where you want to place the bullet also. But its another reason that at 100 yards I sight in my flat topped front blade to hit about 8 inches above point of aim. Its easier for me to hold on the bottom of the animal than it is to pick a blurry spot 1/3 of the way up.....
To answer your question, yes I'm not old(you were thinking that right....) but I am 41 and my eyes are starting to mess with. Not to mention I've had correction since 14, astigmatism etc.... and i've picked the hardest CF weapon to master, the service rifle with iron sights. Trust me it takes time and effort to make it work, but vision can mostly be overcome, certainly enough so to make a 100 yard shot on game workable if the light conditions allow it.

Best, Jeff

 

[cayuga]

I use peep sights on three of my traditional rifles, and personally I do not like them. Now the fiber optic sights really stick out nice for me. I think I will stay with them.

The thing I am lucky about is, where I hunt there are really no long shots. Also I have gotten to a point that if I do not get a deer or what ever, that's all right. I just like being out wandering around.

I personally like to target shoot. I've done a lot of shooting in my life and now that I am retired, left the city life and moved into the country only so I could have my own shooting range...

I sure hope you find the conical you want and it works the way you want...

 

[rost495]

Fire sights are great for what they are. Close range tools. They are simply too large and too bright for precision shooting out there a ways. But you have it well under control sounds like. And you are at home. Like you, when I hunt here, there is never any pressure. Took me from mid October till almost Christmas to get the buck I wanted in the right place at the right time and if it had not worked out, no big deal.

Travel 1000 miles one way and for an animal never taken.... kinda changes things a bit for me still...... and I love elk meat to boot.

Jeff

 

[cayuga]

I agree.. as much as I love venison/deer there is nothing I like more then elk meat. My two friends hunt them every year and they love on the stuff. Needless to say, when they call and tell me they are having an elk roast dinner and I am invited.. well I never turn that down.

 

[rost495]

Update

Stuck with 305 REALs this weekend and spent a number of hours at my 100 yard bench. Real Black 2F, Pyro select new 2F, New 777 3 F. Low to high charges. No luck. Averaging about 25 inch groups.

Ball groups not impressive enough for me.

Did cleaning, no cleaning, brushing, weighing charges etc... Lots of shooting to find a best group yesterday with balls and a heavy load at 5 inches..

Bottom line, 28 twist Green Mountain Barrel will head straight to be Microslik treated Monday AM IF its in stock!

Will update in a few weeks when i'm rolling again!

Jeff

 

[BCS]

You won't be sorry!