Clueless??? Terrible at the range??? Help!

[Tiger Rag]

I was at Gander Mtn this past Sunday PM and saw 5744 in the their powder cabinet. But I have several pounds of it as well if you need some. I belong to a range here in Guilford Co, Archers' Range, just north of G'boro. It only goes oujt to 100yds. I go to Camp Butner to shoot longer ranges, out to 1,000yds.

I also do some long range shooting down at our club in Washington, NC, just a little past you there at Tarboro.

Well, that is great if they have the AA at Gander. 100 yards is really all I need right now. I usually can go to my brother farm in Statesville but he thinks he has a big buck patterned right now and doesn't want me to disturb the pattern with shooting. The Tarboro range goes to 200 which is great for the hunting rifles as far as I'm concerned.

Just did a google search for a range in the area and didn't come up with much. Did a search for "Archers Range" and didn't get anything with that either. Give me a shout if you get a chance. Thanks, Matt

 

[Tiger Rag]

Speaking of IMR 4759, here is a target Savage shot with my Savage.

I'd be fine with that. I reckon that would do the job on a whitetail!

 

[Tiger Rag]

Tiger...
Why don't you get a strap on PAST recoil pad for use at the range? Best item EVER to save your shoulder...AWESOME product, works with ALL rifles/shotguns/muzzleloaders AND requires no fitting!

PAST pad

Midsouth had them on backorder. Had to go to Bass Pro today anyway and they had them there. I picked one up there. Seems like a nice product. Should be nice on a long day at the range.

 

[Rifleman]

Hey Bill glad you made it home from the sandbox! Welcome home and thanks for your contribution.

 

[1SHOT1KILL]

Thanks Rifleman. You don't know how good it is to be home, especially this time of year.

Tiger Rag, they have a public range down in Montgomery Co., in the Uwharrie National Forest. I understand that it was closed temporarily back in the Spring, but may be open now. I know they have 100yd ranges, not sure if the have anything further or not. It is only about 1 to 1.5 hours from you there in W-S. They have nice benches , but no over head shelter.


http://www.cs.unca.edu/nfsnc/recreation/uwharrie/

 

[Tiger Rag]

Thanks Rifleman. You don't know how good it is to be home, especially this time of year.

Tiger Rag, they have a public range down in Montgomery Co., in the Uwharrie National Forest. I understand that it was closed temporarily back in the Spring, but may be open now. I know they have 100yd ranges, not sure if the have anything further or not. It is only about 1 to 1.5 hours from you there in W-S. They have nice benches , but no over head shelter.


http://www.cs.unca.edu/nfsnc/recreation/uwharrie/

Great, Thanks Bill. I guess if all esle fails I'll head down Sunday early and shoot Sunday afternoon at our neighbors next to the hunt club. That's good to know. I've been down there to ride my atv so I should be able to find it no problem

 

[D Hunter]

Tiger if it is any consulation I am going through the same experience as you. The Barnes bullets are not working for me either. I have ordered the 300 gr XTP and hope to find some more 5744. I have used up nearly a pound trying to find a load that will hit paper, wood or the backstop. The first two shots may be close to each other and the next will miss the paper some times by as much as 3-4 feet at 50 yards. Now that is a miss. I have used two scopes and open sights on this gun. Results have been the same. Used SST 250's XTP MAG 300's Xtp240's and Barnes TMZ 290'S. Some rounds in each group miss paper. I have been shooting relatively fast though. I am amazed if a hot barrel is my problem. I have been shooting early and late so temps have been cool. The barrel is only slightly warm to the touch. If the sabots can't take mildly warm temps what do they do when you touch off the powder? Randy says that is my problem though. He says the barrel is much hotter on the inside. Could well be. I let the barrel cool a long time and the first two shots this afternoon with 300 gr XTP mags and 5744 were about an inch at 40 yards. This is acceptable considering that missing the paper by 4 feet was my rifle's performance last trip to the range with the Barnes bullets. Randy said to use the regular Hornaday300 gr XTP's and not the mag version and 5744 and MMP short sabots. They are on order. I am with you on the urgency of getting this sorted out. Season opens here monday. Right now I have no confidence that I could kill a deer at 50 yards with that barnes load. That is a pain. I just bought 5 boxes of them. Please keep me posted on your progress, results and blind alleys. I will do the same with mine. We may save each other some time and materials. Thanks "D"

 

[Tiger Rag]

Tiger if it is any consulation I am going through the same experience as you. The Barnes bullets are not working for me either. I have ordered the 300 gr XTP and hope to find some more 5744. I have used up nearly a pound trying to find a load that will hit paper, wood or the backstop. The first two shots may be close to each other and the next will miss the paper some times by as much as 3-4 feet at 50 yards. Now that is a miss. I have used two scopes and open sights on this gun. Results have been the same. Used SST 250's XTP MAG 300's Xtp240's and Barnes TMZ 290'S. Some rounds in each group miss paper. I have been shooting relatively fast though. I am amazed if a hot barrel is my problem. I have been shooting early and late so temps have been cool. The barrel is only slightly warm to the touch. If the sabots can't take mildly warm temps what do they do when you touch off the powder? Randy says that is my problem though. He says the barrel is much hotter on the inside. Could well be. I let the barrel cool a long time and the first two shots this afternoon with 300 gr XTP mags and 5744 were about an inch at 40 yards. This is acceptable considering that missing the paper by 4 feet was my rifle's performance last trip to the range with the Barnes bullets. Randy said to use the regular Hornaday300 gr XTP's and not the mag version and 5744 and MMP short sabots. They are on order. I am with you on the urgency of getting this sorted out. Season opens here monday. Right now I have no confidence that I could kill a deer at 50 yards with that barnes load. That is a pain. I just bought 5 boxes of them. Please keep me posted on your progress, results and blind alleys. I will do the same with mine. We may save each other some time and materials. Thanks "D"

Well, my confidence has been restored although I have not shot yet. I went to see Bill and Henry Ball (the Savage ML10 inventors) yesterday and spent some time in school with them. I was able to pick up a pound of AA5744 and the 300 grain XTP's. I thought I had the 300 grain XTP's but I had the Mags. They told me that if I could get the Mags to shoot, I'd be about the first. Their advice is the 300 XTP, 42-44 grains of AA5744 and the MMP short black sabot. Sounds like this should be nearly a fool proof load and can often result 1-1/2 consistent groups which is what I'm looking for in a hunting situation. Henry was in the shop when I arrived so he spent a ton of time with me, then Bill showed up later when he finished up over at the Armory. It was great to meet both of them and they even offered help if I get down to the hunt club and still struggle sighting in since their club is only another 30-45 minutes past mine.

D Hunter, if you still don't have any luck, you can always run over to Greensboro for a visit with the Ball's. Not sure how long of a ride from Western NC it would be for you but my opinion is it would be worth it. Henry helped me tweak a couple of other things so I should be good to go. I'll keep you posted on the results. If I don't have any luck, I'm going to guess that it will be as Henry says "the nut behind the butt". Henry also gave me a history of the rifle and shared many other stories as well. It was a pleasure speak to him and have him impart some knowledge my way.

I'm also relived that this load should net less recoil even though I did purchase the Past pad. I guess I could take it back, but it could still be a nice addition to a long day at the range.

Thanks again Henry and Bill!

PS. D Hunter, I'll have my computer with me at the hunt club next week and I do have a wireless air card that works there. I'll try and update after I get to the range with my results.

 

[big6x6]

D Hunter...
Is AA-5744 the only powder you have? You've tried a LOT of good bullets. In fact, IMO..you've tried TOO many to be just starting out. Some guns just don't like 5744 and I've owned a couple. Here's what I would do:

1. Focus on two bullets, 250gr .452 XTP #45200 and 300gr .452 XTP #45230. Forget the rest..leave them at home for now.

2. When you go the to powder store, get some Vihtavouri N-110 if they have it.

3. What sabots HAVE you been using?

I'd try two DIFFERENT makes of sabots. Use either the MMP HPH-12 OR Short Black AND the Harvester short black.

4. Starting out loads:

AA-5744
Start out with 42gr WEIGHED OUT ON A SCALE for both the 250gr and 300gr bullets.

N-110
Start out with 40gr WEIGHED OUT ON A SCALE for 250gr bullets.

5. You've shot a LOT.. Clean the crap out of your rifles bore with Hoppes with a bore brush. Drill out the center of your breechplug with a 5/32 drill bit(it should past completely thru after removing the ventliner). Change ventliners.

6. What kind of rest are you using?

7. At the range:

Shoot a 3 shot group(try 50yds to start with) with both the 250gr XTP AND 300gr XTP using 42gr 5744 using the MMP sabot. If results aren't what you're looking for, do the same thing using an Harvester sabot. Please don't let your barrel get warm/hot. Missing the target completely pretty much indicates you are blowing sabots...hot barrel. One of theses loads SHOULD shoot pretty good. If you were able to get N-110 shoot a 3-shot group with the 250gr XTP with 40gr using an MMP sabot for one group then a Harvester sabot for the next group. That is a total of 18 shots for ALL of my suggestions. Wait PLENTY of time between shots. Go to the range at first light if you can when no one is there and it is as cool as possible.. One of the above loads SHOULD shoot and shoot GOOD!

GOOD LUCK!

 

[D Hunter]

Thanks to all for the replies. Big 6, I have a bunch of powders. I have Sr 4759, Re 7, 4227, 4064, Varget, 3031, H4350, IMR 4350, Re 15,19,22,25, 7828, H and IMR 4831, and I expect several others that don't come to mind right now. I tried the 4759 first and could not hit paper at 25 using the 250 gr SST. So I went to the 5744. SOme shots were better anyway. I have a bunch of powders but what I am running out of is time. A week from tomorrow I am supposed to be in the woods. I can shoot tomorrow and maybe a bit Sunday. Saturday is tied up. If luck and weather hold maybe after work next week but not many rounds as the days are getting shorter.
The 300 gr XTP's came today. I will use them with the MMP 24's that I have. I have the short black's and the three petals on the way. May be here tomorrow. I will look for the harvestor Sabots at our only outdoor store tomorrow. I doubt that I can find a can of N -110 in the next few days. Do the boys in G'boro have it? I have a son that will be passing through G'boro next Friday. He may be able to get me a can.That will be too late for the Friday hunt but maybe for the next weekend.
42 gr of 5744 is the best shooting load I have been able to come up with so far. We will see tomorrow what it will do with the 300 gr XTP.

A 5/32 drill bit will not go all the way through the breech plug. I tried a 5/32 and it scarcely cleared the threads on the vent liner. A 5/64 will however. I ran it well in there and seemed to be against metal. I put a new vent liner in it about a dozen rounds ago. Cleaned the rifle twice since then with Hoppe's #9 and break free CLP. I think a fouled breech plug was part of the problem with the Barnes 290's I shot last weekend at the hunting camp. The last round I fired missed target by a full 4 feet. I watched a branch fall in the woods way off to the right. I found that the breech plug only had a very small opening and I found unburned powder in the barrel. From now on I will treat it like it was any other muzzle loader and disassemble and clean well after every range session.

Do you guys have contact info for Henry and Bill? How about a street address? Thanks

I am using a Hoppes rest and forend and rear sand bags. It has worked great for most of my other rifles. Yes the nut behind the but can have his problems. Some days my 50 yr old eyes don't work as well as they used to. My groups sometimes are 2 -3 inches with a 3/4 inch gun and load. That would be entirely acceptable to me for hunting accuracy with a muzzle loader at 100 yards. This 3-4 feet thing makes me weak in the knees when thinking about shooting at a live game animal. I will beat that or I will stay at the camp and wait on centerfire season to open. I will post tomorrow with my results. Thanks to all for your help and suggestions.

 

[Grouse]

Henry & Bill Ball 336-854-3925

 

[Grouse]

You guys might think this is crazy, but its true. You need to make sure your Breech plugs are tight. I remember having problems with my first Savage because of the plug being loose.

 

[Tiger Rag]

D Hunter I think Henry and Bill will be gone all next week for the Eastern NC muzzle loader deer season. They can be reached at

Bills Custom Guns
336-854-3925.

I do believe I saw some N-110 on their shelf, but they mentioned to me that the Vihtavouri powders can be a little touchy sometimes. They felt like the AA 5744 was the most forgiving and liked both the 300 and 250 XTP's. They said you can achieve good results with the Vihtavouri but it just takes some time. Personally that is where I'm going to start, then maybe after the mloader season try the N120 and other bullet combos to see what my gun likes. Good luck to you finding your load, Matt

 

[black3]

D Hunter,

Your breech plug still needs some attention. A 5/32 drill bit will pass through a clean breech plug with the ventliner removed. Soak the breech plug in Hoppe's #9 overnight to soften up the carbon. You will be surprised to see all the junk that you remove out of the plug.

Hope this helps.......it sure won't hurt!

black3

 

[D Hunter]

Thanks guys. It is a better day. I opened that breechplug up with a drill bit. Wow! Was it full. We will see how it does. It shot better. As it is the 300 gr XTP's and 42 and 44 gr5744 loads with the MMP 24's are grouping about 2 inches at 100. One flyer out of 9 rounds but it was off by only about 3 inches not 3 feet the way the Barnes were flying. I will give more results when available. The 44 gr load will be fine to hunt with. Dead on at 100. Thanks for your help everyone. I did find some more 5744 and a bottle of N 120. Have a great day. "D"


P.S. The 45 gr load was about 2 inches at 100 also. Windy this afternoon and no flyers this time. I will try some other sabots and the N120 before deciding on a final load.

 

[Tiger Rag]

Thanks guys. It is a better day. I opened that breechplug up with a drill bit. Wow! Was it full. We will see how it does. It shot better. As it is the 300 gr XTP's and 42 and 44 gr5744 loads with the MMP 24's are grouping about 2 inches at 100. One flyer out of 9 rounds but it was off by only about 3 inches not 3 feet the way the Barnes were flying. I will give more results when available. The 44 gr load will be fine to hunt with. Dead on at 100. Thanks for your help everyone. I did find some more 5744 and a bottle of N 120. Have a great day. "D"


P.S. The 45 gr load was about 2 inches at 100 also. Windy this afternoon and no flyers this time. I will try some other sabots and the N120 before deciding on a final load.

Cool, let us know if you whack a deer when you head to the woods and how the load effected the deer, ie. pass through- DRT, non pass through - deer ran 50 yards, etc.

 

[D Hunter]

The 5744 worked well. I also tried the N 120. It did very well also. Interesting the way this gun groups. The first lands usually within an inch of the POA. The second will land about 2-2 1/4 away. the third will be touching the first. I am not complaining I am celebrating. I understand now why these guys are talking about a modified breech plug to minimize the fouling. After 18 rounds the plug had only a tiny hole through the breech plug. A 5/32 drill bit cured that, but I am surprised at that much buildup is there that fast. I do believe that was the bulk of my problem. I am afraid I took it too literally when some posters say "Clean it once a year whether it needs it or not" It is like any muzzle loader, in that it needs to be cleaned after each range session. Not that it has to be or it will rust out but if you want it to shoot well you need to clean it out each time. Good hunting.

 

[big6x6]

After 18 rounds the plug had only a tiny hole through the breech plug. A 5/32 drill bit cured that, but I am surprised at that much buildup is there that fast. I do believe that was the bulk of my problem.

IMO...that's the SINGLE biggest problem with the 10ML-II. The PRUDENT thing to do is clean the breechlug after each range session for best accuracy. After cleaning the breechplug only shoot a few times to VERIFY your zero then go HUNTING! :lol:

I am afraid I took it too literally when some posters say "Clean it once a year whether it needs it or not" It is like any muzzle loader, in that it needs to be cleaned after each range session. Not that it has to be or it will rust out but if you want it to shoot well you need to clean it out each time.

You're a FAST LEARNER! :yeah:

 

[D Hunter]

Thanks big 6x6. I am ready to go to the woods with that rifle. Just in time. Opening day here is tomorrow. It may be Friday until I can get off work and be in the woods. THANKS! To all who gave pointers that helped me and Tiger on the road to killing accuracy out or our guns. I will post results on game if lady luck graces me. At this time I have weapon, and motive. All I lack is opportunity. Good hunting. D

 

[Tiger Rag]

Ok, got to the hunt club this afternoon. Ran over to my neighbors range. My load was 42 grains of AA5744, MMP short black sabot, and a Hornady 300 gr XTP. First shot, plywood. Got the boresighter out. Fixed that since it was so far out from my last ordeal. Second shot paper! Hey we're getting somewhere. Next 3....well, I'll let you judge:

Not bad.

Last shot 200 yards held 5" high. (dropped 10" at 200 yrds, sound about right?):

Well, Bill and Henry Ball said it would take 6 shots and they were right. I'm ready to go hunging in the morning! Thanks again Bill and Henry! I can't say enough thanks to you both as well as those of you on the board!




EDIT: Well, doesn't look like the pictures will link or whatever but 3 shots at 100 yards were 1-1/2 or so and the last one at 200 was 5" low of center after holding 5" high. I can work with that. I would've shot more but a guy slipped in late to hunt and I felt good about my group and wanted to get out of his way.