So a first...

[MrTom]

I ran Ma up to the daughter's this morning early so she could spend a few days during the daughter's birthday. I came home, and loaded up the Optima pistol and the Patriot and hit the road again for the range. When I arrived there was another person looking to set up but seemed unsure of what was proper etiquette. We chatted a bit as I explained the club rules, then started to set out the Patriot to shoot some slightly heavier IMR loads. 56.5 grains of 4198 to be exact, under a 225 grain Fury Star tip in a blue sabot.

The guy took interest in the gun right off and as I loaded, I explained it was smokeless powder and he was like... hey man that's dangerous in a smoker. I got him reassured then he and I both set off to punch paper, alternating shots between us. After 5 shots I was fairly well impressed and beginning to think I'll try the 57 grains of IMR4198 that Mountain Monkey seems to be impressed with but would have to come home and weight some charges up. I had one charge of 56'5 left and just got the gun charged when this fella asked about shooting the gun. I was happy with what the paper told me so I said "sure". Now, this guy was messing with a .264 Winnie. He seemed to handle that recoil well. One shot with the .45 Patriot. When he set the rifle back in the cradle of the rest and looked up at me, it wasn't the " WOW, does this thing kick" that got my attention, it was the 3/4" semi-circle gash that was just getting ready to spill.

I've seen bleeders and I have seen "bleeders" and I wasn't quite certain which category this dude fell in, but it was for certain he was bleeding. I helped him pack his goodies, then he left for the er. I gave him one of my tackle cards with my phone # on it and he said he'd call later after seeing the ER docs. He called just a while ago. 11 stitches to close that gaping crater. Wow. He wasn't upset at all but will miss a day or so of work. He was actually chuckling about how that "pretty rifle bit his ass", quote, unquote. We're going to meet for coffee Saturday. I just hope now that he doesn't hate me. lol

 

[bronko220002]

Poor guy! I assume your Patriot doesn't have a brake? My Scout with 55 gr of IMR4198 doesn't really kick much at all. I guess he'll have a sob story to tell his buddies at work..LOL. who knows, maybe you found a new friend???

 

[WP79Vet]

I ran Ma up to the daughter's this morning early so she could spend a few days during the daughter's birthday. I came home, and loaded up the Optima pistol and the Patriot and hit the road again for the range. When I arrived there was another person looking to set up but seemed unsure of what was proper etiquette. We chatted a bit as I explained the club rules, then started to set out the Patriot to shoot some slightly heavier IMR loads. 56.5 grains of 4198 to be exact, under a 225 grain Fury Star tip in a blue sabot.

The guy took interest in the gun right off and as I loaded, I explained it was smokeless powder and he was like... hey man that's dangerous in a smoker. I got him reassured then he and I both set off to punch paper, alternating shots between us. After 5 shots I was fairly well impressed and beginning to think I'll try the 57 grains of IMR4198 that Mountain Monkey seems to be impressed with but would have to come home and weight some charges up. I had one charge of 56'5 left and just got the gun charged when this fella asked about shooting the gun. I was happy with what the paper told me so I said "sure". Now, this guy was messing with a .264 Winnie. He seemed to handle that recoil well. One shot with the .45 Patriot. When he set the rifle back in the cradle of the rest and looked up at me, it wasn't the " WOW, does this thing kick" that got my attention, it was the 3/4" semi-circle gash that was just getting ready to spill.

I've seen bleeders and I have seen "bleeders" and I wasn't quite certain which category this dude fell in, but it was for certain he was bleeding. I helped him pack his goodies, then he left for the er. I gave him one of my tackle cards with my phone # on it and he said he'd call later after seeing the ER docs. He called just a while ago. 11 stitches to close that gaping crater. Wow. He wasn't upset at all but will miss a day or so of work. He was actually chuckling about how that "pretty rifle bit his ass", quote, unquote. We're going to meet for coffee Saturday. I just hope now that he doesn't hate me. lol

Well, I guess that's one way to make a friend.... Painful, but apparently it worked!

Kind of a cautionary tale for one of my spring shooting projects: Developing a good load for my Henry 45-70 carbine for when I'm in grizz country - either hunting with the carbine, or packing meat I've taken with something else. Knowledgeable folks put MT's current grizz population at between 3000 and 5000, and it's growing by leaps and bounds. Some of the heaviest populations outside the parks are within 30 air miles of my house, they are seen on a regular basis just a couple miles from where I live, and all but one of the nearby places that I hunt have at least a few resident grizzlies. I'm thinking enough 4198 to push stoutly constructed 350 grain bullets to about 1900 fps. That will be a shoulder thumper in the little carbine.

 

[bronko220002]

Well, I guess that's one way to make a friend.... Painful, but apparently it worked!

Kind of a cautionary tale for one of my spring shooting projects: Developing a good load for my Henry 45-70 carbine for when I'm in grizz country - either hunting with the carbine, or packing meat I've taken with something else. Knowledgeable folks put MT's current grizz population at between 3000 and 5000, and it's growing by leaps and bounds. Some of the heaviest populations outside the parks are within 30 air miles of my house, they are seen on a regular basis just a couple miles from where I live, and all but one of the nearby places that I hunt have at least a few resident grizzlies. I'm thinking enough 4198 to push stoutly constructed 350 grain bullets to about 1900 fps. That will be a shoulder thumper in the little carbine.

Id much prefer a good hard cast 405 gr FP bullet. That's what I run thru my 1895 Guide Gun.
I remember years ago reading an article in one of the outdoor mags where the hunter asked the guide why he carried a 45-70 lever gun and not a more modern magnum chambered rifle. The guide simply responded "a grizzly ain't dangerous at 300 yards"!

 

[MrTom]

No brake Bronco. I am pondering one though. I keep reminding myself that I only need one shot while hunting, two if the world flips up-side down for me. I've been sending 10 shots down range at 56 grains and had the same along today with the 56.5 grains. I stopped the 9th shot.... Jim sent #10 down range.

I plan to do another 10 at 56.5 to make sure today's grouping stands. Today's spent primers were clean and no signs of excessive pressure. The ten sabots were recovered and they showed no signs of being pushed too hard. I'll bump up to 57 grains after the next trial.

Honestly the recoil at 56.5 wasn't that much different than at 56 grains. For me anyways.

I don't know if I want to deal with the extra noise the brake brings. The 24" barrel delivers plenty of bang and a brake will likely make the noise level almost too much even with muffs. Actually, the bh load I shoot in my Accura V2 pounds the shoulder more than the much lighter Patriot with these current load levels.

 

[rangerod]

Some guys will do anything to get out of work. I guess for him it's lesson learned.

 

[Mnt monkey]

The Patriot maybe one rifle staying at 55-56 of IMR 4198 is smarter just because of the recoil signature, I would even go further and recommend the 200 SST or something in the 200 and less category with n110, not for you Mr Tom I know you can handle it and you're used to the rifle but for a newbie going smokeless and a patriot they need to really focus on keeping a hold of that rifle and staying on target and following through, I personally think it's really good exercise it's going to make him a better shooter with their other rifles but if you just got a patriot and you don't want to develop a flinch you need to approach realizing what you're dealing with. It is like shooting a ultralight 7 mm STW you better be ready for the Bang. Mr Tom I hope your relationship thrives with the gentleman!

 

[MrTom]

I thought it was crazy to having just read a thread on this sort of thing happening and then see it happen right under my nose. To be fair, I do have the pop up lens caps on the scope and think that the rear one made the critical eye relief too short for him. The gun has never bit me but I'm in the 255 pound range at 6 foot tall and it takes a bit of push to get the shoulder to move much or at least far enough to get me. I would put Jim in the 160 pound range.

My very first in-line was a Winchester bolt in .45 cal. That thing was a kicker and I think it was due to stock design. A similar incident occurred while I was shooting it at a different club and involved a guy wearing glasses that "just had to shoot" the gun. Ironically, he was shooting a .58 cal smoker sidelock of enfield design that weighed about 12 pounds. He was loading some ridiculous light charge of black powder in it with a mini ball and having zero luck with accuracy. I'd watched him a few minutes before I set up a half dozen benches from him and suggested that he bump up the charge to about 100 grains. As soon as he did, his accuracy began to come around. I was shooting a swaged lead spitzer style of bullet in a sabot made for it, a Canadian company made them. I was shooting 100 grains T7 granular to move the 220 grain bullet and the recoil at that charge was, well, something. This guy worked at Mayo Clinic and was wearing fancy wire framed glasses that I suggested he shoot without when he asked about taking a shot. The scope on that gun I had put a rubber cup on because I'd been bit a couple times and when the smoke cleared on his shot his glasses were mangled and he was already developing the makings of a dandy shiner in addition to bleeding real nice. His glasses did the damage.

The worst gun for recoil I ever shot was an English made .416 Rigby. One shot that cost me $11.00. Iron sights. That shot moved me and the chair back about a foot. I swore I had whiplash. In looking back on that one shot I think I should have been standing. I have a Pre-64 Winchester in Safari grade in .458 Magnum that weighs in at about 13 pounds and the recoil with a 500 grain solid in that gun is stiff but manageable. I would not go the range with ten rounds and expect to shoot all of them accurately off the bench. I got the big Winnie and all the reloading dies and components from a guy for a song and a dance and today its worth about 20 times what I paid for it, that and its in pristine condition so it stays in the safe at the grandson's place with my other collectible guns.

So when I think of .45 guns, I just think of fun, fun, fun!

 

[Mnt monkey]

When I let somebody shoot a 45 smokeless or any of my smokeless guns I take just a moment and try to encourage them to really bow up from the waist up and really hold a tight line through the recoil signature I overemphasize keeping that tension from the waist up and a strong upper body if I stand right behind them I can usually tell if they did that or not by the instant reaction because that rifle is coming to get you. Once he heals up I'd have to invite him to come shoot again let him know that he can get back on that gun and it is an interesting method of striking up a friendship but any method is good if it does that

 

[Mnt monkey]

I sighted a pair of 375s for an old man going on a African trip, he gave me Factory ammo it was in a bag had a factory crimp on it ,I was convinced it was Factory told me that's what he wanted to take to Africa and hunt with I started at a hundred yards shooting off bags I didn't make it very long and I was sneaking up about 50 yards away standing up, that didn't take long and I was getting up about 35 yards away and kneeling the rifles got the best of me as far as I know he wasn't eaten by a lion I never heard back from him after the hunt it was minute of rhino at 100 minute of some animals big chest at 50 and at 35 yards it was okay

 

[WP79Vet]

Id much prefer a good hard cast 405 gr FP bullet. That's what I run thru my 1895 Guide Gun.
I remember years ago reading an article in one of the outdoor mags where the hunter asked the guide why he carried a 45-70 lever gun and not a more modern magnum chambered rifle. The guide simply responded "a grizzly ain't dangerous at 300 yards"!

Yep. And when there's a grizzly coming at full speed through heavy brush a guy with a short handy carbine is far more likely to get off some shots than a guy with a typical long heavy bolt action magnum. Due in part to the presence of wolves, most elk and deer hunting in the mountainous parts of MT is done in the timber these days, and shots at more than 150 yards are exceptional. So the little peep-sighted carbine isn't really much of a handicap for deer and elk, either. Plus.... it's an absolute joy to carry. I haven't put any really heavy loads through it yet, but the stock seems very well designed, which does a lot to mitigate the ouch factor in light rifles chambered for powerful cartridges.

I like the concept of FP hard-cast lead bullets too, and will explore that in the future.

For now, I've got some 350 grain Swift A-Frame flat points which are designed for taking heavy game with lever action rifles. They are excellent by all accounts. I've also got some 350 grain Speer Hot-Cor flat points which are much less expensive, but people who've used them on heavy game report excellet results. The Speer bullet was supposedly designed for the .458 Win Mag, and there's a popular opinion that they won't open up at levergun velocities. However, quite a few people hunt elk, moose, and bears with 45-70s loaded with the Speers, and they report complete pass throughs with devastating wound channels and bang-flop kills. An Australian guy who hunts pigs with a 45-70 tested a bunch of different jacketed bullets fired into wet newspaper at modest 45-70 levergun speeds, and the Speer both expanded significantly (to about .67 inches), and penetrated 25% farther than the next-best .45-70 bullet. In fact, the Aussie said that the 350 grain Speer fired from a 45-70 penetrated farther than any other bullet from any rifle in many wet newspaper tests that he's done. 45-70 wet newspaper vs Sierra 300, Speer 350+400, 325 FTX...

 

[bronko220002]

I don't know if I want to deal with the extra noise the brake brings. The 24" barrel delivers plenty of bang and a brake will likely make the noise level almost too much even with muffs. Actually, the bh load I shoot in my Accura V2 pounds the shoulder more than the much lighter Patriot with these current load levels.

I don't notice any extra noise with the brake. At least not for the shooter. Bystanders complain about the extra noise. And you can always use the brake at the range and then remove it an put a thread protector on for hunting.
I also found my Accura and Knight punch me harder with bh209 than the Scout....a lot harder.

 

[LBAhunter]

Why I like my 357 Max Encore rifle, CVA 357 Max pistol and my Scout conversion with N110, hardly any recoil. I got a Rem. 700 280 AI, I guess it the hardest recoiling gun I got. It's heavy built so even with heavy loads it ain't bad.

 

[Wilyote1]

I think us 12ga slug hunters learned early on what eye relief meant. Even so, I was hunting with a 7mm mag and got hit because of poor shooting posture. I have fired a sml and the recoil was stout. As far as brakes go ... I have a dislike for them because I always manage to sit next to a guy who has magnumitis at the shooting range and blasts away. The concussive force gives me a headache worse than a hangover.

 

[GrandPaBrownBear]

I have a weatherby 6.5 300 that came with one and other than the fact the sprayed on insulation fell like snow with each shot, I can't see a difference in felt recoil.

 

[bronko220002]

I have a weatherby 6.5 300 that came with one and other than the fact the sprayed on insulation fell like snow with each shot, I can't see a difference in felt recoil.

So What's the problem? You got the full effect of hunting, snow included...LOL

 

[smokepolehall]

Reading this topic, reminds me why i don't load my NEF . 45 up with H4198 at anything above 56 gr. It's light and will knock the snot out you when that load is shot.