Clueless??? Terrible at the range??? Help!

[Tiger Rag]

Ok, I need some help. I've got a brand new Savage (stainless, blk syn). I dry patched it twice and fired a primer to foul the barrel. I had pre-measured my V n-120 in 55, 56, and 57 grains. I had the scope mounted and boresighted my local gunsmith who I've always had good luck with. I was shooting 300 grain Barnes MZ expanders in a short black MMP sabot. I started at 25 yards, with the 55 grains of powder and wasn't too bad. Next shot at 100 hit plywood. Made adjustments, hit paper. After that, I couldn't make any adjustments to do anything but hit plywood....at best....sometimes I couldn't even find wood. I tried all pre-measured grains of powder: 55-56-and 57. Barrel had plenty of time to cool.

BTW, this thing kicks like a mule! Holy crap! I've never felt like I was recoil shy either.

Also, I shot my .308 and .300 WSM while I was there after shooting the ML and had touching groups at 100 yards. So I don't think it was all me. Also, both kick much less than the .50.

What am I doing wrong in trying to find paper and working up a load? I tried to use loads I had read folks have good luck with (Chuck Hawks-Randy Wakeman). Maybe I took bits and pieces of loads on accident.

Any help is appreciated. I need to get back to the range and try again before ML hunting season comes in next week. At this point I'd be happy with a 3-4" group I could go into the woods with. I've also got Hornady 300 grain and 245 grain XTP's sitting here too that I didn't try.

Thanks in advance, Matt

 

[Tiger Rag]

Ok, reviewed some of the Pet loads and found 1 mistake. Should have used the supplied sabot. I thought the MMP short black seemed way shorter than the supplied one.

Anyone see anything else odd?

 

[Rifleman]

Tiger-Rag there could be alot of things but here are two to check out.
First you said you ran a couple dry patches down the bore. If this was a brand new rifle then that is not sufficient. The barrel comes with a real sticky rust preventative in the barrel and it has to be cleaned out. A very aggressive cleaning session is in order. I would use a quality bore solvent, patches and a bore brush.
Second you said the gun had plenty of time to cool. I see your in North Carolina where it is plenty warm this time of year. I also saw that your first couple shots were ok. A very common mistake is insufficient cooling time. Even though you say the barrel had plenty time to cool, I highly suspect that could be the problem. At 70 degrees 10-15 minutes between shots is normal. That is before you reload. If the barrel feels warm on the outside whatsoever, then it is too hot.
Keep experimenting and advising us of your progress, and I am sure with the help of the guys on this board you will get that gun shooting good before the season.

 

[neonmoon]

BTW, this thing kicks like a mule! Holy crap! I've never felt like I was recoil shy either.

<snip>

I remember having this type of problem with my new synthetic 10ML and my solution to my problem wasn't in just one area. For one I found that my scope mounts were aluminum and had moved just slightly under the great torque that is exerted from shooting these smokeless loads. Another problem is that my mechanical powder scale would stick. I actually sent my gun back to Savage for inspection and I was very frustrated when they sent the inspected gun back to me with a target that they had shot with my gun. 9/10ths of an inch at 100 yards. This muzzleloader can be very frustrating but also very rewarding when you finally get things right.

Also I would recommend a Simms recoil pad. I have a slip on. We tend to think of the result of recoil in terms of flinching before the shot but that is not our only culprit. Sometimes we tend to react to the recoil AFTER the shot in slightly different ways. You can find these slip on pads on ebay for $15 and it is worth the investment just to see how you might shoot this load with less felt recoil. Hope this helps......Doug

 

[dwhunter]

I would suggest trying some N110 or IMR4759, cause N120 in the prescribed loads do and will kick like a mule under a 300 gr. bullet.

 

[big6x6]

Yeah...clean your bore really good. It has probably purged itself of the factory anticorrisives at this point though. Also...it would be a good idea to get the carbon build up out of breechplug with a 5/32 drill bit. Remove the ventliner and the bit should then completely pass thru the center of the breechplug. Be sure to check scope/mounts. If something is going wrong here it will generally reveal itself during the first 50 shots or so.

You said you had 300gr and 245gr XTPs...Did you mean 300gr and 250gr XTPs? Personally..I would recommend that first time 10ML-II shooters get their feet wet with a 250gr SST/Shockwave/XTP and VV N-110 or if you can't get that, SR-4759. You can start out with 40gr of either powder. Use a MMP Short Black/HPH-12 or a Short Harvester sabot. You'll be rewarded with an accurate, hard hitting load that is really easy to shoot.

 

[Tiger Rag]

Ok, great info from all of you.

Point taken on cleaning it thoroughly. I will do that.

Simms recoil pad: I was thinking that. I'll see if I can order one on eBay. Did you take the factory pad off or just put the slip on Simms over it?

Powder: I ordered the N120 because there is almost zero decent smokeless powder to be found locally and I paid the hazmat fee to order it - so I've got a pretty big investment in it. Based on reports of accuracy and consistency I'm going to try and stick with it for now. Randy Wakeman emailed me back and said to try 52-57 grains, so I'll lower the load somewhat (at least starting out on my work up). Hopefully that will help on recoil too. I know a lot of the recoil is dictated by the 300 grain bullet though.

Sabot: Randy Wakeman emailed back and agreed that the MMP short black was at least part of the culprit. I'll use the supplied Barnes sabot.

Heat: Well, it was pretty warm yesterday although very comfortable as it was a dry air mass. It was probably mid 70's. The bench is in the shade under a grove of trees by a pretty big creek so it wasn't terribly warm. There was another guy there and we were taking turns so it was probably at least 15 minutes between shots. I did reload before I let it sit though.

Sounds like I've got plenty to work on. I don't want my next session to be as frustrating as this last one. Please keep the suggestions coming.

Thanks again, Matt

 

[Doohan]

FWIW- I have had some GREAT success with the short black MMP sabot. I shoot 60gr of N120, short black mmp, and 275 XPB and it is an MOA load for me..

 

[Tiger Rag]

FWIW- I have had some GREAT success with the short black MMP sabot. I shoot 60gr of N120, short black mmp, and 275 XPB and it is an MOA load for me..

Well, that would be an easy change for me to just get the 275 XPB. I can get bullets locally, just not quality powders. Thanks for the suggestion. That should have a little less recoil too. I just want a reasonably accurate hunting load that will do damage to a deer upon impact.

 

[Tiger Rag]

BTW, this thing kicks like a mule! Holy crap! I've never felt like I was recoil shy either.

<snip>
Also I would recommend a Simms recoil pad. I have a slip on. We tend to think of the result of recoil in terms of flinching before the shot but that is not our only culprit. Sometimes we tend to react to the recoil AFTER the shot in slightly different ways. You can find these slip on pads on ebay for $15 and it is worth the investment just to see how you might shoot this load with less felt recoil. Hope this helps......Doug

Do you remember if you used a small, medium or large with the slip on?

 

[Tiger Rag]

BTW, this thing kicks like a mule! Holy crap! I've never felt like I was recoil shy either.

<snip>
Also I would recommend a Simms recoil pad. I have a slip on. We tend to think of the result of recoil in terms of flinching before the shot but that is not our only culprit. Sometimes we tend to react to the recoil AFTER the shot in slightly different ways. You can find these slip on pads on ebay for $15 and it is worth the investment just to see how you might shoot this load with less felt recoil. Hope this helps......Doug

Do you remember if you used a small, medium or large with the slip on?

Nevermind, there were measurments listed. It is a medium. I don't see it for $15 though. $23 is the best I see with about 6-7 in shipping. I'll check bizrate and some of those sites as well.

 

[Tiger Rag]

You said you had 300gr and 245gr XTPs...Did you mean 300gr and 250gr XTPs?

That's my bad. They are 240 grain Hornady XTP's with the Harvester sabot. The 300 XTP's also have the Harvester sabot.

 

[Tiger Rag]

The Sims Limbsaver #10601 says it fits the Savage 10 and 110 with wood stock. Is there one that fits the synthetic stock so you don't have to use a slip on?

 

[Tiger Rag]

The Sims Limbsaver #10601 says it fits the Savage 10 and 110 with wood stock. Is there one that fits the synthetic stock so you don't have to use a slip on?

Ok, Randy answered this too. No custom one made, you have to cut and grind one to fit the syn stock. I ordered the slip on.

 

[Lee Woiteshek]

I had a similar problem this year. My Savage is brand new also. Ran out of adjustments on my Conquest at 20 yards. Couldn't shoot a group. Found out that the holes for the bases weren't lined up. Purchased Burris's bases and rings with the plastic inserts for just this problem. Going out later this week to see if I can't get the Savage to run.

 

[flatland hunter]

The closest prefit (and it is very close) is the the one for the wood stock encore and omega. Holes just don't line up... I just drilled new ones from the hardpastic plate side and din't even need to drill new holes in the soft material, it had enough flex to allow me to screw it in.

 

[schoolmaster]

Absolutely DO NOT reload the gun immediately after firing and let it set with the sabot/bullet in the hot/warm barrel. The heat will soften the sabot and accuracy will be nonexistant. Stand the gun in the shade EMPTY and let it cool with the bolt open. Wait your 15 minutes and then load it up and shoot it. If you can, recover some of the sabots and see if they are opened up like petals on a flower or if they are twisted and the bases are split or if there is any sign of melting. I suspect heat is the culprit. A good scribbing with a wire brush and some solvent that works on plastic may be in order. Also keep your components in the shade and out of the direct sunlight.

 

[Tiger Rag]

Absolutely DO NOT reload the gun immediately after firing and let it set with the sabot/bullet in the hot/warm barrel. The heat will soften the sabot and accuracy will be nonexistant. Stand the gun in the shade EMPTY and let it cool with the bolt open. Wait your 15 minutes and then load it up and shoot it. If you can, recover some of the sabots and see if they are opened up like petals on a flower or if they are twisted and the bases are split or if there is any sign of melting. I suspect heat is the culprit. A good scribbing with a wire brush and some solvent that works on plastic may be in order. Also keep your components in the shade and out of the direct sunlight.

Yep, all components were in the shade as there is a pretty nice covered structure at our neighbors range. I'll remember not to load it next time before it cools. Good info, thanks!

 

[Tiger Rag]

I was using W209 primers because the guy I was shooting with had them....I had forgotten mine.....I was in a hurry. Glad he had some to spare. Anyway, will the Winchester WML209 primers for inline muzzleloading rifles be fine? I bought them when I thought I was going with an Encore.

Sorry for all the questions as I'm been really busy at work and had to scramble getting things together last week before heading to the hunt club. I started reading the owners manual but have mis-placed it and didn't finish it......yes I looked in the bathroom.....lol. Anyway, I just called Savage and ordered one.

Thanks for helping me with my boneheaded mistakes, Matt

 

[DeerNut]

I agree with all the things being said here, especially the need to shoot slower. At 70F, you should wait 15-20minutes...at least. Even at 45F I wait 10 minutes between shots. This is hard to get your head around because the Savage is so easy to shoot fast. I usually take a second gun..or 3, so I have something to do between shots. 20 minutes is a long long time when you're anxious to see what your gun is doing.

Also, what kind of bases are you using? This might be part of the problem too.

Next time, I would just pick one load (say 58grs N120) and shoot that one load until you're getting on paper. Once you get any kind of group, then...that's the time to start tinkering.

So, clean your gun and slow down. At my last range session, it took me over 2 hours to shoot 8 shots.