Brown Bear and the 10 ML-II

[Rifleman]

Well Randy I don't know and dont care. Remember last year when I told you all about my friend from work who stopped a grizz charge with his Savage 7mm mag? His hunting partner was severely mauled and it took my pal 3 shots with the 7mm mag to stop the charge a few feet from his feet. This is one of those deals where almost does not cut it. Dead is Dead. When someone asks for advice about facing a life or death situation the only advice I am willing to give is how to put the odds in their favor, not increase them against that person.
I stand by my statements. Period.

 

[Anonymous]

Well Randy I don't know and dont care.

Ignorant or apathetic?

No reason to assume great danger if it is non-existent. Muzzleloaders have taken some 9-1/2 foot brownies, and there is no precedent to show unusual or even high risk with a competent guide.

 

[Loggy]

RMan, so be it with my offering of "Fatherly Advice". I like that.

I have given such to my 22 year old and last week she finally admitted...Dad...some of that stuff you told me when I was 18 wasnt all that DUMB!!!

Oh well, lets get bak to chasin Big Browns with the 10 ML-II! :lol:

Great Thread VENISONEATR!! Over 400 views and alot of interesting replies. :lol:

 

[VENISONEATR]

Let's give a new twist to the debate... What if I would have titled this thread Cape Buffalo and the Savage ML-II. I don't know what the exact statistics are, but I have heard a helluva lot more horror stories involving hunters, hunting with professional hunters guiding them, getting maimed or killed in the last few years than I have brown bear hunters. It's a pretty safe bet that the majority of the incidents involved hunters carrying rifles designed for dangerous game i.e. repeaters. Some of these guys might have even tried their safari rifles out on lesser species to become familiar with the weapon. "Training wheel" species if you will. My point is that once you enter the arena of dangerous game a whole new set of parameters come into play. And the gentleman who frequent this board I hold in a very high regard when it comes to smokeless muzzleloading and just out of curiosity I wanted to know how you felt about entering the dangerous game arena with a weapon we all seem so passionate about.
Novice and expert alike.

 

[Anonymous]

Well, you have a lot of time to think about it. You have a lot of resources you can call upon; Doc White will be happy to tell you about the big (huge) muzzleloading bears he has taken over the years, as well as his time living in Alaska.

Brown bear is not considered dangerous game in a class with polar bear, grizzly, or cape buffalo. You can plan on multiple shots being put into your animal, or I believe you should. The first video I put out has Shockey talking a nice brown bear-- Loggy, was that three shots, or four? All were well placed, lethal shots-- according to the man that shot the video, and the guide I talked to that was there as well.

If the question is one of the Savage being enough gun, there is little doubt-- if you believe the .450 Marlin is adequate, the 10ML-II can be loaded hotter than that with no troubles.

As far as loads go, there is plenty of time for that as well. I've not experimented (punished) myself with anything heavier than a 375 gr. bullet.

I can tell you that 72 grains of 2015 pushing a 350 gr Barnes X is a sub-25,000 PSI load, good for about 2100 fps. Not only a 3/4 MOA load, it is also a 220 yard load w. an 8" kill. Over 1 ton of energy @ 200 yards strike distance.

That compares well with a .375 H & H pushing a 350 grain bullet. :shock:

 

[Rifleman]

Look there is no doubt in my military mind that the Savage has 2 things going for it. It is the best darn muzzleloader out there and it can be loaded to equate a .458 mag. IF one was forced to use a mz to take out a Brownie that would be the mz of choice. But you are not, you have a choice.
Ignorant or apathetic? Neither it is just not relevant. I have met Mr Murphy too many times. He is not a nice gent and he does not play by the rules. I consider Jim a friend and one that I look forward to fishing and hunting with in Tennessee next year, and hopefully going on other trips as well in the future.
Non existent danger? Well that is just ridiculous. There are plenty of cases where good and experienced hunter and guides have been hurt or killed by Brownies, Grizzleys and Polar bears. AW 2 different species you say? Not really, the recent studies show that the DNA is the same! They can and do interbreed succesfully. No different then the mult sub species of whitetail. Matter of fact if there was no threat we would not be having this conversation now would we.
Besides that I know a little something about shooting under pressure. It is darn easy to get a shot off just a little off the mark. With over 40 whitetail to my credit with a handgun I can honestly say I have muffed a shot before. How many of you who have killed alot of game can say you have never ever muffed a shot? Not many I am willing to bet. But hey on a deer you get to go home sooner or later. But not with a Brownie. You go from a dead bear to a really pissed bear in a heartbeat. Say Mr. guide has a weapon or ammo malfunction for the first time in his life. Now you are in a hurt locker without a key.
Face it guys, my point still stands. We are not just talking theory here. We are talking about a friends life, a father and a husband. We owe it too him to counsel with caution. He owes it too his family to come home alive and well.
Anything else is just irresponsible.

 

[big6x6]

Dwight,
PERSONALLY...I would still do it, in a minute! And I wasn't kidding when I said the guide should have a .416(or 404, .458, .460, etc) as a back-up! I wouldn't go otherwise. BUT I wouldn't go with ANYTHING without that guide having the same back-up! It would be stupid to do so and Jim shouldn't have to with a good guide. Every grizzly/brown bear hunt I've ever seen/read about, the guide had a large caliber back-up. That's the ONLY way to do it. I wouldn't go with my .375 H&H bolt gun without the guide having that same backup.

I've met Mr Murphy a time or two myself!

 

[Rifleman]

Well Chuck it is a personal choice and that I respect. It is just my opinion and I am comfortable with my position and I am sure you all see the validity of my argument. It is a good discussion.
I just never did like funerals. Been to too many.

 

[Anonymous]

Face it guys, my point still stands. We are not just talking theory here. We are talking about a friends life, a father and a husband. We owe it too him to counsel with caution. He owes it too his family to come home alive and well.
Anything else is just irresponsible.

I believe Jim is intelligent enough, quite capable of educating himself, and deciding for himself if this suits his personal tastes and requirements.

I don't buy into the theory of a risk-free life, nor do I think experienced Kodiak Island guides are prone to suicide-- or deserving of that label.

 

[VENISONEATR]

He owes it too his family to come home alive and well.
Anything else is just irresponsible.

You had to put that in there, didn't you....!!!
You make a darn strong case for me opting for the .358 Norma in a contrtol round feed Mauser.
I had no idea when I posted this thread it would get this much response!!!
I do have a long time to think about it and I would like to hear what Doc White has to say on the subject. Because all of us are speaking on conjecture. I've hunted 'em but I haven't killed 'em. I think maintaining dependable weaponry with the ML-II is achievable and I know it has the balls to do the job. It is the unknown variables that Dwight is talking about that really gets one thinking. It is a personal choice, one that I will have to think about while I'm fishing this summer and hunting this fall. I will speak to many people and if I go the route of the ML-II I'll have other types of insurance besides the guides back-up gun!!!! :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Doc is at 435-722-2520.

Dave Anaman hunts all over the world, he is at 989-642-2336.

Gordon Mitchell is at 989-673-6650, another "world traveler."

All will be happy to help as they can.

 

[VENISONEATR]

Thanks Randy :!: I will be sure to tap their collective knowledge.

 

[Anonymous]

One more:

Rob Jones-- 907-272-6739.

Rob's in Alaska, and has hunted a lot of Brownies.

 

[Rifleman]

I certainly do agree with RW when he says Jim is quite capable of making his own decision. But he asked for opinion and I gave mine as did others. I do also agree the ebst thing to do is talk to those with the experience. They can give a much more intelligient answer then those of us quarterbacking from the couch.
Sucidal guides, hmm don't think I ever made that remark or even alluded to it in anyway. However to err is human and last time I checked there were no aliens guiding on Kodiak.
I did read an account of a young man who had been guiding on Kodiak as an assistant. He was on his last hunt as an assistant and was to get his own guide license soon. WAS
Last time he was seen alive he was running from a Brownie. Next time they saw his head the Brownie was using it for a volleyball enjoying the day.
I too agree that there is risk in life and a certain amount is neccessary. I work in a job that is considered somewhat risky. We do all we can to negate the risk. I believe that is really the point of the discussion. How much risk is acceptable? This is what must be considered carefully by Jim. I think he is doing that.
I am done with this discussion.

 

[Loggy]

I am done with this discussion.

You must be weakening Dwight! :lol:

 

[VENISONEATR]

Here's what one Kodiak outfitter had to say about hunting brown bears with a muzzleloader...


Killing a brown bear with a muzzleloader could be done. Why , I have no idea. Killing a brown bear with a spear or sword could be done too. I spose if a guy really liked to hunt brown bears and had killed five or six big ones he could try it with a muzzle loader. It would be alot like bowhunting except your gun might not go off. What I tell bowhunters is that their chance for success is statistically 10%. That means the average guy will haveto go hunting ten times to get one and spend lots and lots of money. They usually don't like to hear the truth. If a guy really wants to hunt and lower his odds for killing a bear he should limit his shots to inside 25 yards and do it with a bear rifle. It would be alot safer and you would have the same chance as getting one with a bow or a muzzleloader.

 

[Anonymous]

Here's what one Kodiak outfitter had to say about hunting brown bears with a muzzleloader...

Did you ask him if he ever heard of a 10ML-II?

 

[VENISONEATR]

I have subsequently refered him to this site... Unfortunately many people who pursue the sport of hunting aren't necessarily into the ballistics of weaponry. The term bear gun, in my opinion, is some what of a misnomer. I am sure there are plenty of Eskimos cruising the frozen north with nothing more that a .30-30, and that weapon or one just like it, has accounted for the demise of many polar bears.
Providing proper proof to people with preconceived perceptions of muzzleloaders, may very well prove problematic :lol:

 

[nugbuk]

Sad story:
http://ydr.com/story/main/81309/
But it proves Rifleman?s view. And be aware of the guide who is backing you up.

 

[VENISONEATR]

Wow that's horrible...