What muzzleloaders can shoot smokeless? Any sidelocks?

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

All this talk about store bought black powder guns being able to handle light smokeless charges is fallacy.

Do you understand the fact that Blackhorn209 is 83% smokeless powder (Nitrocellulose) ?

See the MSD sheet below for the formulation.

This blackpowder substitute made up of 83% smokeless powder is approved for use in modern 209 inline rifles. This propellant is not blackpowder. However, the proper amount of this Nitrocellulose-based propellant produces safe pressures in a muzzleloader.


https://blackhorn209.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/2022-Blackhorn-209-SDS.pdf

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

If I tried what these fellars did at the 3:40 mark ( loading a recently fired cap gun straight from the container ) .......my viewers would crucify me for such an unsafe practice.

I guess you can do that and get away with it when you have a million subscribers.....

These fellars set out to destroy a rifle barrel by using a fast pistol powder and that is what they accomplished. The same thing would have happened with any centerfire barrel.

So what did they really prove? Did they really prove no muzzleloader can ever use smokeless powder?

 

[MrTom]

This blackpowder substitute made up of 83% smokeless powder is approved for use in modern 209 inline rifles. This propellant is not blackpowder. However, the proper amount of this Nitrocellulose-based propellant produces safe pressures in a muzzleloader.

Here....I'll fix the highlighted statements:

"black powder substitute.... "MAY be approved for use in certain modern 209 in-line rifles".... "the proper amount of this nitrocellulose-based propellant might produce safe pressures in certain modern muzzleloaders designed to have a fully enclosed breech and that do not use a plunger style bolt and then the use of this powder is only if the manufacturer endorses the use of it.

 

[OldBill72]

It's not turning a clock back. It's all about keeping smokeless muzzleloaders and the information surrounding them free of this other garbage that may, to some, suggest that using smokeless powder in a black powder only gun is doable. Right now custom guns can be deemed smokeless, but none of the store bought guns are custom.

And we do not need to discuss the Nitrofire here. Its a cartidge charged gun that has the bullet and /or sabot pushed down the barrel. Smokeless MUZZLELOADERS are still completely loaded from the muzzle, no form of cartridge involvement anywhere.

Woodman Arms site specifies specifically that anyone who is humoring the idea of shooting smokeless in any of his custom guns, those that take months to make and deliver, MUST contact Mark Woodman directly to have a conversation about doing so. The T/C guns that have been rebarreled and the proper plug installed is a custom gun. Savage, Remington, CVA Scout and Ruger weapons that have been properly converted to be smokeless shooters are no longer simple store bought weapons, but in fact customized to handle smokeless. All this talk about store bought black powder guns being able to handle light smokeless charges is fallacy.

Smokeless means exactly that and is what should be discussed in this unique forum, not maybes or guess what you can do with your black powder only gun. What I have found to be true with those that post in this smokeless forum, they are serious people and take little for granted when it comes to shooting these special guns. I got my Patriot in December, and just shot it for the first time yesterday. Since receiving the gun until yesterday I have had a multitude of conversations with other members who post here in this forum, asking questions on powders and bullets, and some of the ins and outs of shooting smokeless because it is so different from black powder and the subs. Not once, ever, has one of these contacts suggested that I load a light charge of smokeless in my Accura to see if I was going to enjoy shooting smokeless. And that is exactly how this particular forum should be managed.

Having hand loaded cartridges ammunition for both pistols and rifles does not make me an expert. I have read four books on hand loading. I mean read the important contents, not just looking at the recipes, I learned by studying information and loading for at least twenty years, and that does not making me an expert. There are well over one hundred different smokeless powders. Some burn fast and some burn slow, others have more energy than others.
Meanwhile some people have made you-tube videos with carefully selecting powders guaranteed to blow the muzzle-loader to pieces in order to demonstrate and scar the heck out you.
A person can blow up a regular cartridge rife using the wrong smokeless powder in an excessive amount in a hand loaded cartridge. As I hand load my own cartridges as a hobby, I have also learned what specific smokeless powder in a carefully measured amount will work in generic purchased muzzle-loader. The reason I do this is to eliminate the corrosive effects of the smoke type powders. I warn everyone who attempt using smokeless powder in muzzle-loader there are real dangers of exploding the muzzle-loader rifle if experimenting with smokeless powders in a muzzle-loader.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

Here....I'll fix the highlighted statements:

"black powder substitute.... "MAY be approved for use in certain modern 209 in-line rifles".... "the proper amount of this nitrocellulose-based propellant might produce safe pressures in certain modern muzzleloaders designed to have a fully enclosed breech and that do not use a plunger style bolt and then the use of this powder is only if the manufacturer endorses the use of it.

Did the quote above come from a company which produces modern 209 inline muzzleloaders, or did it come from you?

There is no such thing as "the proper amount of this nitrocellulose-based propellant might produce safe pressures in certain modern muzzleloaders...".

The pressure is either safe or it is not safe.

 

[Decay]

To Mnwoodman: Have you had opportunity to install and use your strain gauge yet? Can you share results and give us a dissertation?

Anybody else install one?

 

[OldBill72]

To Mnwoodman: Have you had opportunity to install and use your strain gauge yet? Can you share results and give us a dissertation?

Anybody else install one?

I use my right shoulder as a strain gauge. If it hurts after shooting twice, then the charge should be reduced. If my shoulder really hurts after one shot and the barrel bulges, I won't do it again with that firearm. It must have been defective from the start and should not be reused again.

 

[Danny Ross]

60-odd years ago I used to help a friend load 45-70's for a trap door Springfield. We used (if I remember correctly) 13 grains of Unique topped off with oatmeal. When I started shooting muzzel loaders, I brought this experience to them, since I HATE the mess associated with black powder substitutes.

I mostly use CVA break actions with 10 to 13 grains of Unique and have never had a problem. To prevent double loading I put the powder in small clear plastic bottles and it's easy to see how much powder is in there.

 

[GM54-120]

If im not mistaken, SMI was selling SML Douglas barrels for Encores and H&Rs years before Savage made the ML. They had several approved loads listed too.

 

[Decay]

Anybody in Minnesota or Wisconsin own a strain gauge? or know anyone that has one?

 

[ENCORE50A]

https://www.shootingsoftware.com/

 

[smokepolehall]

Some how this Tread/Topic keeps going on n on. Sidelocks/Underhammers/Mulesear n flintlocks are all unsafe to use smokeless powder in. I have a T/C inline with the plunger spring & its not safe to shoot with BH209. For my peace of mind, if the barrel n action was not made to use n shoot smokeless powder then it should not be used . Those that insist on doing other wise its your choice just stop promoting it here on the Forum for others to read n try.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

Some how this Tread/Topic keeps going on n on. Sidelocks/Underhammers/Mulesear n flintlocks are all unsafe to use smokeless powder in. I have a T/C inline with the plunger spring & its not safe to shoot with BH209. For my peace of mind, if the barrel n action was not made to use n shoot smokeless powder then it should not be used . Those that insist on doing other wise its your choice just stop promoting it here on the Forum for others to read n try.

This is the "Smokeless Muzzleloading" section of this forum.

Two questions are found in the original question of this thread.

"What muzzleloaders can shoot smokeless?"

"Any sidelocks?"

I am not advocating that anyone try to shoot smokeless powder in a sidelock.

However, Savage proved smokeless powder can be safely used in some muzzleloaders many years ago.

During recent years a number of YouTube videos have been produced which claim smokeless powder can never be used in any muzzleloader. This claim is not true. It is a myth. Some of those producing these videos have purposely used fast-burning pistol powders to destroy a rifle barrel, in an attempt to prove their point. This methodology is not an honest assessment of the truth.

 

[GM54-120]

Im not promoting using it in a BP only rifle either. The fact is that 4198 and Re7 can shoot a 200gr bullet at well under 28kpsi and SMOKE 120grV BH209 speeds is without question. I bet a 240gr sabot load would not be much higher and certainly less than 32Kpsi. Yet a jumbo load of BH209 behind a 325gr is making just about 32kpsi. Same type of loads that CVA is suggesting for the Paramount line of rifles.

Just imagine what 90gr by weight of BH209 and a 300gr 40cal is making. How much you wanna bet its well over 32Kpsi? You know guys are shooting loads like this in the Paramount and Peregrine 40s.

 

[Decay]

I'm hoping someone I can talk to has this RSI pressure testing strain gage. It's expensive.

 

[smokepolehall]

This is the "Smokeless Muzzleloading" section of this forum.

Two questions are found in the original question of this thread.

"What muzzleloaders can shoot smokeless?"

"Any sidelocks?"

I am not advocating that anyone try to shoot smokeless powder in a sidelock.

However, Savage proved smokeless powder can be safely used in some muzzleloaders many years ago.

During recent years a number of YouTube videos have been produced which claim smokeless powder can never be used in any muzzleloader. This claim is not true. It is a myth. Some of those producing these videos have purposely used fast-burning pistol powders to destroy a rifle barrel, in an attempt to prove their point. This methodology is not an honest assessment of the truth.

Yes i know the sml section, most of my post was about those Black powder shooting ML's. I have read & watched Toby alsp Steve White on the Savage sml load testing n have the book. What i am saying is if the components were not made for smoleless then those people should not use it. There will always be those who are stupid ! Ignorance can be helped & we all can learn. Lets take the section what ML's can shoot smokeless, simple only those that are made for it. My rifle was a CF & used smokeless powder prior to it being made into a ML.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

Yes i know the sml section, most of my post was about those Black powder shooting ML's. I have read & watched Toby alsp Steve White on the Savage sml load testing n have the book. What i am saying is if the components were not made for smoleless then those people should not use it. There will always be those who are stupid ! Ignorance can be helped & we all can learn. Lets take the section what ML's can shoot smokeless, simple only those that are made for it. My rifle was a CF & used smokeless powder prior to it being made into a ML.

One of the teachers I worked with in the public schools of my state had a saying... "You cannot fix stupid." We would like to make life perfectly safe for stupid people, but how can we do it within reason?

When shotgun shells first came into use they used blackpowder as the propellant. Later smokeless powder came into use in shotgun shells and many of the older Damascus-twist barrels would not handle the pressure. My wife inherited one of those old double-barrels from her father and it became a wall-hanger in our living room, because it is not safe to shoot modern shells in this gun.

Later the firearms manufacturers worked with those producing shotgun shells to make sure the shells would work safely in the modern shotguns. When you buy a box of shotgun shells at your local Sporting Goods store most people do not worry about the shells blowing up the barrel of your shotgun. We really need something like this with modern 209-primered inline muzzleloaders. My invention the "Self-Ejecting Muzzleloader Safety Cartridge" is designed to be the first step in establishing a new standard for muzzleloaders, in the same way a new standard was established for shotgun shells and shotguns over 100 years ago. My invention could also help "stupid people" (or ignorant people) who know nothing about muzzleloaders but want to kill a deer with a muzzleloader during deer season. It eliminates the guess-work of measuring out powder and matching it to a projectile. By using modern methods, it is possible to produce a Self-Ejecting muzzleloader cartridge which will produce a safe pressure in all of the rifles currently in production, and most of the rifles produced in the past.

 

[GUN NUT]

One of the teachers I worked with in the public schools of my state had a saying... "You cannot fix stupid." We would like to make life perfectly safe for stupid people, but how can we do it within reason?

When shotgun shells first came into use they used blackpowder as the propellant. Later smokeless powder came into use in shotgun shells and many of the older Damascus-twist barrels would not handle the pressure. My wife inherited one of those old double-barrels from her father and it became a wall-hanger in our living room, because it is not safe to shoot modern shells in this gun.

Later the firearms manufacturers worked with those producing shotgun shells to make sure the shells would work safely in the modern shotguns. When you buy a box of shotgun shells at your local Sporting Goods store most people do not worry about the shells blowing up the barrel of your shotgun. We really need something like this with modern 209-primered inline muzzleloaders. My invention the "Self-Ejecting Muzzleloader Safety Cartridge" is designed to be the first step in establishing a new standard for muzzleloaders, in the same way a new standard was established for shotgun shells and shotguns over 100 years ago. My invention could also help "stupid people" (or ignorant people) who know nothing about muzzleloaders but want to kill a deer with a muzzleloader during deer season. It eliminates the guess-work of measuring out powder and matching it to a projectile. By using modern methods, it is possible to produce a Self-Ejecting muzzleloader cartridge which will produce a safe pressure in all of the rifles currently in production, and most of the rifles produced in the past.

Are you ever going to be able to bring this to the market for us to try

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

Are you ever going to be able to bring this to the market for us to try

I have talked with an attorney with one of the major firearms manufacturers and they are looking at the idea. Their company has produced muzzleloading products in the past.

I do not have the resources to mass produce this cartridge.

Some of the companies now producing blackpowder and the substitutes are not going to like the idea, because it could reduce their share of the market. I have already had some negative commentary from one of those companies.

I am preparing to make another video in the next few days.

I would also like to get some independent evaluations of the product by someone who is well-known in the industry, like Ted Nugent. So far, I have not figured out how to get that done.

Thanks for the encouragement.

 

[HV-Muzzleloaders]

Muzzleloader Myth Buster: Part 1 Can smokeless powder be used safely in some muzzleloaders?

(New Video)




Part 2