T7 and Water!

[edmehlig]

And the results were?

 

[HC]

Following

 

[sabotloader]

And what did you find? Gee whiz! all this suspense!!!!!

 

[ElDiablo]

And what did you find? Gee whiz! all this suspense!!!!!

You first - It’s your thread. I thought you had some test results for us!

 

[sabotloader]

You first - It’s your thread. I thought you had some test results for us!

I do but just have not had time to do anything with them. I have the powder dried and collected. It really do not do what expected in the water and now dried I can see see and feel the granuales but... I have not tried to ignite them yet.

Generally I can say what I expected to happen didn't happen! I was expecting a much greater MESS!

I will try to get some pic up later today - hopefully!!!

 

[michiganmuzzy]

You first - It’s your thread. I thought you had some test results for us!

C’mon! Yer killin me, Smalls!
What happened in your test results?

 

[Wyatt]

Doncha just love a cliff hanger?

 

[sabotloader]

Ok I worked on this a bit in the middle of the night, so I will add some thoughts.

What I was trying to do was to find out what would happen to T7 if it got wet, real wet! I know the powder is hydroscopic. But how hydroscopic is it? As compared to the other real BP's and the other subs on the market.

Call me crazy but I wanted to try something off the chart. I decided I was going to drop a small amount of powder into a water bath. then observe what happened.

My preconceived thoughts were:
1. the powder would absorb the water and swell up lager than its normal size.
2. I expected the powder to become a big blob of sludge on the bottom of the container.
3. Also when I siphoned the water off and allowed the powder to dry. I expected a large glob of solid powder, that would need to be broken up to reuse.
4. One more thing I really didn't expect it to ignite.
5. I really expected the tap water it was resting in to discolor, become dark and murky, but it never did.

Not many of my preconceived thoughts materialized.

Here is picture composite of what I did and what happened. As you can see the experiment was started on Aug 22 and ended Aug. 26.



I will add after the powder dried and dried rapidly in room air. Before removing it I did touch it with a fingertip and moved some of it around. It really did feel granulated. Next, I removed it from the container by spooning it out and placing it on a piece of white paper. It almost looked and felt like real T7 powder.

I have not attempted to ignite it as of yet, but I really think it will ignite.

Still things to test but for now it has done better than I thought it might.

Hope this stirs an interest in some folks.

 

[sabotloader]

OK - ElDiablo - your turn!

 

[ElDiablo]

My test results so far…

After 48 hours of exposure to very high humidity and heat all three powders had absorbed moisture. The top 1/2 inch or so of each was moist and clumped together in the vial. The black powder and the BH209 particles both appeared stuck together. The 777 appeared as a wet/gooey clump. None would pour from the vials. When I attempted to break up each clump with a toothpick and by tapping the vial, the BH209 and black powder seemed to break loose and come out pretty easily. The 777 was wet and a bit like a lump of chocolate pudding.

I weighed each powder charge and each had absorbed considerable water by weight.

The Schuetzen absorbed the least water - increasing in weight by 1.8 gr (1.36%). The BH209 was in the middle with a gain of 2 grains (2.28 %). The 777 absorbed the most water - 3.8 grains (4.04%).




I then placed each powder charge back in its 10 ml vial and left the cap off so each could dry (under normal outdoor conditions here - about 90 degrees average and 10% relative humidity).

After 48 hours I reweighed each charge. Both the BH209 and the black powder were back to their original dry weighs. The 777 weighed 95.0 grains (still 1.2 grains heavier than its original dry weight). Hard to believe it is still holding water. I was able to easily break up the remaining dry clumps of BH209 and Schuetzen and both appear back to normal appearance-wise. The 777 clumps are rock hard. They remind me a little of dry clumps of brown sugar. I was unable to break them up even with moderate effort.



I put the 777 back in its open vial and will check the weight again in a day or two to see if it has dried out completely. At some point the plan is to shoot them over a chrony to see if performance was altered.

 

[sabotloader]

Thank you for your time and results. I think you covered much more range than I did. Your picture of T7 after 48 hours appears to look a lot like the smaller clump I had. But more interesting to me is that your pic shows T7, well actually all three powders still maintained granular form even though they were a solid clump.

Personally, I think your results are more along the lines that a ML hunter might incur.

When I went to check the dried collection of T7, even though it was a solid clump I could see and feel granules in the clump. When I spooned the clump out of the bottom of the container the clump easily came apart and when set on the white paper, it really did appear to be a normal powder makeup.

Thank you for your time and information.

 

[ElDiablo]

Thank you for your time and results. I think you covered much more range than I did. Your picture of T7 after 48 hours appears to look a lot like the smaller clump I had. But more interesting to me is that your pic shows T7, well actually all three powders still maintained granular form even though they were a solid clump.

Personally, I think your results are more along the lines that a ML hunter might incur.

When I went to check the dried collection of T7, even though it was a solid clump I could see and feel granules in the clump. When I spooned the clump out of the bottom of the container the clump easily came apart and when set on the white paper, it really did appear to be a normal powder makeup.

Thank you for your time and information.

Likewise - happy to be able to share info. Lots to learn with muzzleloading.

 

[bronko220002]

When up and running I am going to buy another case of Olde Eynsford split 10 lbs 2F and 15 pounds 3 F. I know its expensive to do but I have enjoyed not worrying about powder the last couple of years since my last bulk purchase. Can shoot as much and as often as I want.

I do similar. When I get down to about 3 cans, the next couple times I headed to my gun shop I would pick up 2 or 3 cans at a time. I have about 10-12 cans of various granulations at home in addition to my subs.

 

[bronko220002]

Eldiablo - after the drying are you going to do the ultimate test and try shooting them?

 

[deerlessbob]

ElDiablo, your seems like an excellent analysis. I hope you can shoot those loads and share your results with the forum.

 

[Dwayne]

Real Black Powder (SCKNO3) can get wet and still be just as potent as before it was wet.
All other artificial powders will probably lose their potential. T7 is not SCKNO3 very good
chance it will lose its potential and not work like it should.

You CANNOT drain the water away and expect the GP to work like it should.
With Real GP, the potassium Nitrate dissolves in the water. When you drain
the water instead of evaporating, you take away some of the KNO3. That means
instead of having a mixture of (let's say)75,15,10.... you might end up with a
mixture of 70,15,10....Which will produce a different burn rate.

 

[ElDiablo]

My test results so far…

After 48 hours of exposure to very high humidity and heat all three powders had absorbed moisture. The top 1/2 inch or so of each was moist and clumped together in the vial. The black powder and the BH209 particles both appeared stuck together. The 777 appeared as a wet/gooey clump. None would pour from the vials. When I attempted to break up each clump with a toothpick and by tapping the vial, the BH209 and black powder seemed to break loose and come out pretty easily. The 777 was wet and a bit like a lump of chocolate pudding.

I weighed each powder charge and each had absorbed considerable water by weight.

The Schuetzen absorbed the least water - increasing in weight by 1.8 gr (1.36%). The BH209 was in the middle with a gain of 2 grains (2.28 %). The 777 absorbed the most water - 3.8 grains (4.04%).

View attachment 23047
View attachment 23046

I then placed each powder charge back in its 10 ml vial and left the cap off so each could dry (under normal outdoor conditions here - about 90 degrees average and 10% relative humidity).

After 48 hours I reweighed each charge. Both the BH209 and the black powder were back to their original dry weighs. The 777 weighed 95.0 grains (still 1.2 grains heavier than its original dry weight). Hard to believe it is still holding water. I was able to easily break up the remaining dry clumps of BH209 and Schuetzen and both appear back to normal appearance-wise. The 777 clumps are rock hard. They remind me a little of dry clumps of brown sugar. I was unable to break them up even with moderate effort.

View attachment 23048

I put the 777 back in its open vial and will check the weight again in a day or two to see if it has dried out completely. At some point the plan is to shoot them over a chrony to see if performance was altered.

Ok, so I got around to finishing this test.

All test charges had dried to their pre-test dry weights. Some small hard clumps were noted in the Bh209 and Triple Seven charges. The Triple Seven clump was pretty large and hard so I crushed it up a bit. The black showed very slight clumping but broke apart easily.

I weighed two more identical charges of each powder and fired them over a Magnetospeed. Bullet was a 250 gr TC Shockwave and HPH12 with a Fed209A from a Savage 10ml .50.

All ignited normally. The third charge in each group was the charge that was wet and dried out. Velocities were as follows.

Charge weights equivalent to 115 grV:

BH209 87.8 grW
777 2F 93.8 grW
Black 2F 124.2 grW

Velocities:

BH209
2117 fps
2122
2090 (wet/dry)

777 2F
2031 fps
2064
1998 (wet/dry)

Schuetzen 2F
1622 fps
1614
1606 (wet/dry)

The BH209 and 777 charges that were wet/dried showed a slight velocity decrease. My guess is the presence of those small clumps altered the burn rate slightly.




[Edit: in my original post I wrote that the charge weights were 100 gr by volume - It should read 115 gr by volume. ]

Edit: Add bullet and rifle details.

 

[ronlaughlin]

Good to know. Thank you kind sir.

 

[coolen63]

Likewise - happy to be able to share info. Lots to learn with muzzleloading.

I know back in the day on ships they would wet powder to store. less fire hazard Then they would dry and regrind? But shooting in a cannon is differnt then a rifle?

 

[GoexBlackhorn]

I don't keep any powder, real black or substitute, more than two years. I try to shoot it all-up. It usually amounts to (2) - one real black and one substitute. My latest experiment into substitutes was White Hot pellets at the range. Due to blackpowder snafu around here lately, my jug powder last used was 777 FF.

After the tornado that hit & ruined Cookesville a couple years ago, an old muzzleloader was found in a basement - leaning against it's cinder block foundation wall - barrel bent about 20 degrees from not being touched in almost 50 years (elderly) and yes, it still fired afterwards, loaded with real blackpowder that obviously got wet, due to high humidity and unheated basement conditions.