T7 and Water!

[sabotloader]

Since I kind of started this conversation in the BH-209 thread - thought I might bring it out in its own thread.

First off, I totally agree that it is hydroscopic! But off the top I would ask a couple of things.

1. How hydroscopic is it?

If you poured a bit of T7 into a container with standing water - what would you expect?

I mean sure it is hydroscopic, but as compared to BP's and BP subs other BH how does it compare?

Several years ago I did some experimenting with T7 and water. I had a very good collection of pictures of a few days time span. From those I developed a few thoughts of my own. Well, now 20 years later and several computers and different picture hosts sites, I cannot find the pictures to re-post.

Anyway after a couple of post in the BH thread, I am trying to repeat the experiment to show you what I found in the first go around.

#2 Question for those with more real BP experience than I!

Can real BP be dried and re-used as if it had never been wet?

#3 Can any of the Pyro's be dried and re-used?

Just trying to stimulate some thought before I tell you what I found.

 

[ElDiablo]

I keep my powder dry so no idea how hygroscopic the various choices are. I’ll be interested to hear your results!

 

[stubshaft]

I live in an area that is pretty humid. I have observed unopened cans of T7 turn into a solid lump due to humidity in a couple of years.

 

[sabotloader]

I live in an area that is pretty humid. I have observed unopened cans of T7 turn into a solid lump due to humidity in a couple of years.

Correct - that is really a possibility it is Hydroscopic - no doubt about it. But not near as hydroscopic as other powders. But with a properly sealed jug that is not a problem. I am currently shooting Jugs that I purchased in 2013 that have stored no special manner here in the house. I did tighten all the lids when I purchased them.

So I can honestly say I have never had any jugs of T7 develop any type of clumping. Pyros, American, and several other types of powded - yes yes and yes.

Opened T7 jugs - I have not experienced clumping either.

 

[rusticbob]

Same results here with T7, cans 2 years old shoot fine. Put the lid on tight and good to go for years. Cannot say the same for Pyro, it seems to loose power after a few years.

 

[Ron Huff]

I had some T7 pellets given to me that were several years old and had been opened and stored in an outside garage with no heat or air. Shot a few and they fired but were not consistent. I put them in a low temp dehydrator overnight and could tell a big difference in performance and used all of them. I have been given a lot of older clumpy black powder over the years that I have dried in my garage that has Electric heat. After a few days with heat and air circulating I brake up the clumps and store in newer containers that are sealed tight. I use this powder regularly with no issues at all. When bought new and stored properly I have never had any powder clump.

 

[bronko220002]

I would have to believe that real bp could get wet and if dried thoroughly it would be OK.
I believe once the elements are originally tumbled that alcohol is added and then the batch is compressed into a puck, dried then granulated to size. I don't know what they did years ago. My guess is that they used water. I'm going to research this

 

[bronko220002]

Ok i did some looking and if bp gets wet it is ruined. The reason is that the saltpetre in the mixture dissolves thereby making the remaining contents inert

 

[sabotloader]

Interesting find Bronko - I really had no idea as I do not use real BP - you cannot buy it around here. To get GOEX locally you have to go Rhondie type event and purchase from a local BP vendor.

 

[sabotloader]

I had some T7 pellets given to me that were several years old and had been opened and stored in an outside garage with no heat or air. Shot a few and they fired but were not consistent. I put them in a low temp dehydrator overnight and could tell a big difference in performance and used all of them. I have been given a lot of older clumpy black powder over the years that I have dried in my garage that has Electric heat. After a few days with heat and air circulating I brake up the clumps and store in newer containers that are sealed tight. I use this powder regularly with no issues at all. When bought new and stored properly I have never had any powder clump.

That follows more along the lines that my grandfather suggested to me to many years ago. He would always bring his side hammer in after a hunt. He would place it in the corner pull the hammer back to half cock and let house the warmer air circulate to make sure the powder was dry.

 

[bronko220002]

Mike to add to my research now I don't know what to think. Early on, 1500s, they moistened the bp with water and "corned" it then pushed it through sieves to granulate it once it dried.
When my friend and I hunt with our flinters in PA in late Dec and Jan we keep our rifles in the vehicles after the day's hunt and don't bring them in the house. There is a charge in the barrel but nothing in the pan and the pan/frizzen are covered with a piece of paper towel.
Its usually fairly chilly during this time of year and bringing them in the house condensation would set in when it hits the warm air.

Tell you what. When I get back home I'll take a bit of bp and try something. I'll put some in the freezer then take it out into the warm air and some others I'll mist it and let it dry and see it it still works.
I'm pretty sure it it got completely wet it would be ruined.

 

[bronko220002]

Interesting find Bronko - I really had no idea as I do not use real BP - you cannot buy it around here. To get GOEX locally you have to go Rhondie type event and purchase from a local BP vendor.

Wow. Well getting Goex is tough right now but I can buy Swiss at a 2 or 3 places within 50 miles of me.

 

[Ron Huff]

Goex isnt being produced right now so Swiss and Scheutzen are the only powders available

 

[Vasmokepole]

My man cave is in the basement and all of my supplies stay down there. Warm in the winter and cool in the summer. I run a dehumidifier year round and never have any issues. My 777 has a screw on funnel and is capped. I swapped for a Knight recently and considered BH 209. Changed my mind because I use 777 in my Whites and figure just keep it simple and run one powder. Is it November yet?

 

[bronko220002]

Goex isnt being produced right now so Swiss and Scheutzen are the only powders available

I believe there was an accident at the plant.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

I believe there was an accident at the plant.

Estes bought Goex and now has a govt contract and is building a whole new plant.

 

[Ron Huff]

When up and running I am going to buy another case of Olde Eynsford split 10 lbs 2F and 15 pounds 3 F. I know its expensive to do but I have enjoyed not worrying about powder the last couple of years since my last bulk purchase. Can shoot as much and as often as I want.

 

[dbowling]

unless Im mistaken they have fired cannon powder that has been on bottom of ocean for a couple hundred years after it was dried out.Seen it on the Discovery channel I believe.

 

[Wyatt]

It doesn't ruin black powder to get wet. The three elements used in the making of powder aren't lost when the water evaporates. It may clump up, but breaking it down to smaller particles will fix that.

 

[ElDiablo]

Thanks to @sabotloader for starting this thread. I too was curious about the relative hygroscopic qualities of common BP and sub powders so I ran this test.

I measured charges of 100 grains by volume and then weighed those charges. Weights were as follows:

BH 209 (87.8 grW)
Triple 7 2F (93.8 grW)
Schuetzen 2F Black (124.2 grW)



Then I placed each charge in a 10ml plastic vial and left the cap off. I stood the three vials in a container with about an inch of water and sealed it. I left the vials in the sealed container at about 90 degrees for 48 hours. Heavy condensation built up on the inside walls of the container - I’m betting it was nearly 100% humidity inside.




After 48 hours I took the vials out, examined the charges and weighed them to see if they had absorbed any water. Results were not as I expected…..