PRICING OF BH 209 VIOLATES OBSENITY LAWS

[squirrelhawker]

Hey,
I was playing around with some numbers using SABOTLOADERS data from one of his posts. (Thanks Sabotloader :!: ) Scroll past his table.

There are variables everywhere, no doubt, but lets TRY to compare apples to apples. Lets say we have some work to be done. Lets propel the Hornady .40 200 gr. XTP to approx. 1900 fps. This can be done with 60 gr. (WEIGHED) charge of T7 2F. ( avg. 1903 fps) I used a .75 factor to his 80 gr. volumn . I think .75 should be close. Also note that the T7 3F averaged 1943 fps .
Also following Sabotloaders data.. with BH 209... it took 90 gr. volumn.. also 60 gr, weighed (using the .667 factor) to achieve an avg . velocity of 1898fps. So how much did it cost to do this work? Using pricing at grafs, I can get a 10 0z. bottle of BH 209 for $26.39. I can get a 16 oz. bottle of T7 either 2F or 3F for $17.99. You can shoot that load 73 times from the BH bottle and 116+ times from the T7 bottle. $ .361 per shot for the BH or $.154 for the T7.
Some of us might say (including myself) "I dont mind paying a LITTLE extra to get some added benefits." How much extra? If you were willing to pay 50% MORE than the T7, then the 10 oz. bottle of BH209 should cost you $16.86. Lets say you would even pay 75% MORE than the T7 costs to shoot that same projectile. That 10 oz. bottle of BH should then cost you $19.67. How about 135% MORE??...OUCH!!

I was reading Bob Shells review of BH 209 at biggamehunt.net. He was noting the high price of BH. "I was told it was due to the holes" (in the powder grains). Western told him it was difficult to manufacture and that raises production costs. Look at BH and then IMR 4759 under magnifying glass. Not easy to tell them apart. Very similar looking holes. Somehow, it can be done it with the IMR4759 for $17.59/pound. (Graf)
Hey western, heres an idea for the short term. Give us a POUND of the BH209 for the $26.39. That would then ONLY be 50% more than the T7 in the example given above. Tell us you figured out an easier way to do the hole..

I am not slamming BH 209- the product, just BH- the price. I submit there is nothing in that little bottle to command that pricing. Heck, nitro been around since the 1840's.
:lol: Just trying to shame western. :wink:

 

[horsefly]

man we need to get a post on here for this where we can sign it and demand they change their prices ( a petition) and send it on to them, i personally love the powder but man its gonna be tough to keep shooting it here soon, i had to just pay 39.00 for a jug last weekend at bass pro and drove 75 miles each way! found out gander has it half the distance but still 37.00 but thats still cheaper over all but still gettin way to high for my buget to keep shooting. i sure would/will hate to switch. it probally will fall on deaf ears and blind eye's but its still worth a try especially if they start to see the sales droppin off cause of the price.

 

[horsefly]

Hey,
I was playing around with some numbers using SABOTLOADERS data from one of his posts. (Thanks Sabotloader :!: ) Scroll past his table.

There are variables everywhere, no doubt, but lets TRY to compare apples to apples. Lets say we have some work to be done. Lets propel the Hornady .40 200 gr. XTP to approx. 1900 fps. This can be done with 60 gr. (WEIGHED) charge of T7 2F. ( avg. 1903 fps) I used a .75 factor to his 80 gr. volumn . I think .75 should be close. Also note that the T7 3F averaged 1943 fps .
Also following Sabotloaders data.. with BH 209... it took 90 gr. volumn.. also 60 gr, weighed (using the .667 factor) to achieve an avg . velocity of 1898fps. So how much did it cost to do this work? Using pricing at grafs, I can get a 10 0z. bottle of BH 209 for $26.39. I can get a 16 oz. bottle of T7 either 2F or 3F for $17.99. You can shoot that load 73 times from the BH bottle and 116+ times from the T7 bottle. $ .361 per shot for the BH or $.154 for the T7.
Some of us might say (including myself) "I dont mind paying a LITTLE extra to get some added benefits." How much extra? If you were willing to pay 50% MORE than the T7, then the 10 oz. bottle of BH209 should cost you $16.86. Lets say you would even pay 75% MORE than the T7 costs to shoot that same projectile. That 10 oz. bottle of BH should then cost you $19.67. How about 135% MORE??...OUCH!!

I was reading Bob Shells review of BH 209 at biggamehunt.net. He was noting the high price of BH. "I was told it was due to the holes" (in the powder grains). Western told him it was difficult to manufacture and that raises production costs. Look at BH and then IMR 4759 under magnifying glass. Not easy to tell them apart. Very similar looking holes. Somehow, it can be done it with the IMR4759 for $17.59/pound. (Graf)


I am not slamming BH 209- the product, just BH- the price. I submit there is nothing in that little bottle to command that pricing. Heck, nitro been around since the 1840's.
:lol: Just trying to shame western. :wink:

Hey western, heres an idea for the short term. Give us a POUND of the BH209 for the $26.39. That would then ONLY be 50% more than the T7 in the example given above. Tell us you figured out an easier way to do the hole..

as said here that would work heck i'd give 30.00 bucks a pound no problem.

 

[sabotloader]

squirrelhawker

So i think that explains why I continue to shoot T7... although there is not doubt in my mind that BH is the real deal - but i drive a Ford in real life also...

 

[k]

have to admit i love bh209 except for the price.still shoot alot more t7. karl

 

[Busta]

squirrelhawker,

I personally think the biggest crime in muzzleloading powder is 777 pellets. The containers are not sealed, and the pellets start absorbing moisture as soon as they are packaged at the factory. At least the new IMR White Hots are packaged in tubes that may help with that matter. Wally World gets $34 a box for 777 Pellets. These are formed to be the equivalent to Black powder, which is no where near the same as 777 loose powder or BH209. If you want to shoot a load that is equivalent to 120 grains of BH209, you will need 3 50 grain pellets. That will net you 33 loads with 1 pellet left over. That is $1.02 per load. Why do you never hear anyone bitching about those prices? How much money does it take to put a hole in a 777 pellet?

I would be almost certain that there is one wholesale price for all of these powders. I know most places will ship up to 48 pounds of powder for one shipping price and hazmat fee. That would mean anyone company that ordered say Blackhorn 209 for instance, could get at least 5 cases of 10 bottles per case. The net weight for a case of BH209 is 6.25 pounds, the gross weight is 8.25 pounds which includeds the weight of the jugs and shipping box. So 5 cases multiplied by 8.25 pounds = 41.25 gross pounds.

Now take that 5 cases = 50 jugs of powder.
Add the $10 shipping and $22 Hazmat =$32

That comes out to a WHOPPING 64 cents per jug to have them shipped if bought that way.

Using your Graf's price of $26.39 per jug, they are obviously getting that powder for much less than that or they wouldn't be selling it for that. The other companies are also getting it for much less than that as well.

Even if they had to pay what Graf's was retailing it at, which we know they aren't, but let's do some figuring here.

Say BIG BOX Brand X Orders 5 Cases at Graf's retail, which we know is higher than they are really paying, and probably by a pretty good margin. But let's say it WAS $26.39 per jug, then we add in the shipping and HAZ MAT figured out above at 64 cents per jug, that comes to a grand total of $27.03 per jug delivered to their place of business. By the way, that is the same price we all can get it for if you were to order that many cases.

Of course I don't actually know what the retailers are paying for the powder Wholesale, but we DO KNOW it would be less than the $27.03 per jug, and they may even get a quantity discount or better shipping and Haz Mat arrangements??

OK, Now Mr. BIG BOX retailer puts the powder out on his shelf at the earlier reported $39.99 per jug. I have actually seen it for retail at as much as (sit down) $43.99!

Now I am not positive, but I think the Suggested Retail is like $29.99.

So WHO is the one that is really making the mark up? The numbers don't lie. I can understand some mark up, but in some cases it is rediculous.

Another thing to consider, Not all of these powders are made right here in the good ol' U.S.A., It says right on the BH209 container that it is "Manufactured in Canada for Western Powders". You can't ship it here for nothing. I'm pretty sure Western has to pay a handsome price to have it manufactured and shipped to them, so they can offer it to us.

My take is, sure it costs a little more to shoot BH209 than 777 loose, but with the NO SMOKELESS law in Michigan, it is the next best thing in the black powder substitutes. I don't have to deal with the crud ring and swabbing. And it sure beats the heck out of 777 Pellets at about 34 cents per pellet.

Sabotloader's results are not going to be everyones results. He lives in Idaho at probably a much higher elevation than most of us flatlanders. The climate is different, and remember he don't get the crud ring like we do. Also remember this test was done with light 200 grain bullets, the tables turn on 777 when you get into the 250 grain + bullets. Trust me you will get better mileage out of BH209 than 777 in the heavier bullets or even the lighter bullets with heavier charges.

A retailer can pretty much charge anything they want for an item. I am sure if Western could hold all the retailers to the MSRP, they would. They would also sell tons more powder, because a heck of a lot more people would be snatching it off the shelves. Just my $0.02, and worth every cent!

Get some and try it, you KNOW you want to! :wink: :lol:

 

[black powder]

squirrelhawker

So i think that explains why I continue to shoot T7... although there is not doubt in my mind that BH is the real deal - but i drive a Ford in real life also...

i also use only T7 but i drive a 2005 BLAZER ZR2 made by GM.

 

[Spitpatch]

Now add a 20% carbon TAX on that........SHEEEEUUUT!

 

[horsefly]

i shoot bh. and i drive a 86 ram charger a 96 s10 blazer and a 90 chevy citation wagon. i also have to put this in when i got my new jug at bass pro last sat all the bp was stocked cause it was the day before fathers day and there was only 4 jugs of bh on the shelf i got one. back by there a hour later there was just two left. and one guy that worked there said they sell bh more than anything right now even at the 39,99 a jug cost! so why would they cut the price when they have suckers like me who will buy it at that price!?

 

[Lee 9]

Well, I agree it is more expensive. If its not worth it then don't buy it that just leaves more for the guys like me that go out to shoot not spend more time cleaning out crud ring than we do shooting. What I can not understand is why all these people who don't want it complain about the price. Lee

 

[coltchris]

In my JSC wholesale catalog, they're asking $30.85/can now with no case price discount!!! Now add 3% for credit card purchase and that takes it to $31.78/can!!!! I bought my last case (shared with buddies) at less than $30/can retail mail order (before hazmat). Best way to buy; get 2-4 buddies and order a case. By the way, I'm down to my last can; any close neighbors interested? Good post Busta; your right on as usual!!!

 

[john keyes]

I want to use it and will but I'm still a noob and want to use Pyrodex for a few years until I get tired of it. RIght now its cheap (or cheapER) and I'm learning a lot about ML shooting and getting better.

I still enjoy the smell and the smoke!

plus its got to come down later and/or the competitors come out with their versions...

one thing about blackhorn....what is it? if its not black powder, and its not smokeless powder.......

:?:

 

[funman]

I have some BH 209 and i drive a tundra SINGLE CAB TWO WHEEL DRIVE. So you know im cheap. Really i only shoot this stuff during hunting season and thats it. I hate the price of this stuff and would not shoot this on a regular. I figure if more people do like i am they will come down on price. Isnt the economy suppose to be doing bad, you guys cant be buying this stuff.

 

[Rafsob]

man we need to get a post on here for this where we can sign it and demand they change their prices ( a petition) and send it on to them, i personally love the powder but man its gonna be tough to keep shooting it here soon, i had to just pay 39.00 for a jug last weekend at bass pro and drove 75 miles each way! found out gander has it half the distance but still 37.00 but thats still cheaper over all but still gettin way to high for my buget to keep shooting. i sure would/will hate to switch. it probally will fall on deaf ears and blind eye's but its still worth a try especially if they start to see the sales droppin off cause of the price.

That price is obscene and disgusting. But as stated above, there is a method to combat this robbery. Don't buy it and stop complaining if you still are. If we don't buy it then they will get the message and lower the price.

Yes I was in Bass Pro Shop here in Virginia and it was $39.95. That is utter BS!!! No powder should be that high and only 10 oz. at that!

MY LAST WORDS ON THIS ISSUE IS TO "STOP BUY THE STUFF, UNTIL THEY LOWER THE PRICE!"

uke: uke: uke: uke: uke:

 

[danders]

sooo let me see...
bh 209 is more accurate in my gun
do not need to swab btween shots
no crud ring

that would make it BETTER than 777 or pyro

and I should COMPLAIN that it costs more ??????

this is America is it not. dont like it dont buy it.......

 

[squirrelhawker]

squirrelhawker,

I personally think the biggest crime in muzzleloading powder is 777 pellets. The containers are not sealed, and the pellets start absorbing moisture as soon as they are packaged at the factory. At least the new IMR White Hots are packaged in tubes that may help with that matter. Wally World gets $34 a box for 777 Pellets. These are formed to be the equivalent to Black powder, which is no where near the same as 777 loose powder or BH209. If you want to shoot a load that is equivalent to 120 grains of BH209, you will need 3 50 grain pellets. That will net you 33 loads with 1 pellet left over. That is $1.02 per load. Why do you never hear anyone bitching about those prices? How much money does it take to put a hole in a 777 pellet?

I would be almost certain that there is one wholesale price for all of these powders. I know most places will ship up to 48 pounds of powder for one shipping price and hazmat fee. That would mean anyone company that ordered say Blackhorn 209 for instance, could get at least 5 cases of 10 bottles per case. The net weight for a case of BH209 is 6.25 pounds, the gross weight is 8.25 pounds which includeds the weight of the jugs and shipping box. So 5 cases multiplied by 8.25 pounds = 41.25 gross pounds.

Now take that 5 cases = 50 jugs of powder.
Add the $10 shipping and $22 Hazmat =$32

That comes out to a WHOPPING 64 cents per jug to have them shipped if bought that way.

Using your Graf's price of $26.39 per jug, they are obviously getting that powder for much less than that or they wouldn't be selling it for that. The other companies are also getting it for much less than that as well.

Even if they had to pay what Graf's was retailing it at, which we know they aren't, but let's do some figuring here.

Say BIG BOX Brand X Orders 5 Cases at Graf's retail, which we know is higher than they are really paying, and probably by a pretty good margin. But let's say it WAS $26.39 per jug, then we add in the shipping and HAZ MAT figured out above at 64 cents per jug, that comes to a grand total of $27.03 per jug delivered to their place of business. By the way, that is the same price we all can get it for if you were to order that many cases.

Of course I don't actually know what the retailers are paying for the powder Wholesale, but we DO KNOW it would be less than the $27.03 per jug, and they may even get a quantity discount or better shipping and Haz Mat arrangements??

OK, Now Mr. BIG BOX retailer puts the powder out on his shelf at the earlier reported $39.99 per jug. I have actually seen it for retail at as much as (sit down) $43.99!

Now I am not positive, but I think the Suggested Retail is like $29.99.

So WHO is the one that is really making the mark up? The numbers don't lie. I can understand some mark up, but in some cases it is rediculous.

Another thing to consider, Not all of these powders are made right here in the good ol' U.S.A., It says right on the BH209 container that it is "Manufactured in Canada for Western Powders". You can't ship it here for nothing. I'm pretty sure Western has to pay a handsome price to have it manufactured and shipped to them, so they can offer it to us.

My take is, sure it costs a little more to shoot BH209 than 777 loose, but with the NO SMOKELESS law in Michigan, it is the next best thing in the black powder substitutes. I don't have to deal with the crud ring and swabbing. And it sure beats the heck out of 777 Pellets at about 34 cents per pellet.

Sabotloader's results are not going to be everyones results. He lives in Idaho at probably a much higher elevation than most of us flatlanders. The climate is different, and remember he don't get the crud ring like we do. Also remember this test was done with light 200 grain bullets, the tables turn on 777 when you get into the 250 grain + bullets. Trust me you will get better mileage out of BH209 than 777 in the heavier bullets or even the lighter bullets with heavier charges.

A retailer can pretty much charge anything they want for an item. I am sure if Western could hold all the retailers to the MSRP, they would. They would also sell tons more powder, because a heck of a lot more people would be snatching it off the shelves. Just my $0.02, and worth every cent!

Get some and try it, you KNOW you want to! :wink: :lol:

If my only choices were T7 pellets or BH at the current pricing, I would choose BH...agreed. Just because I have not complained about it doesnt mean I endorse it. I cant take on all the sins of the sporting world.

Busta, there is no way the suggested retail is $29.99.
I buy from JSC usually..wholesale. $30.85. Somebody else posted that too, I think. Grafs price, also dealer of $26.39 is lowest I have seen.
$39.95 probably is the sugg. retail. I will find out. They ( western and Hodgdon) will charge what the market will bear. If western would price the BH closer to the loose T7, they would blow T7 out of the water, sales wise.

Oh, and you said " Trust me you will get better mileage out of BH209 than 777 in the heavier bullets or even the lighter bullets with heavier charges."
Using the same data from sabotloader.. the heaviest charges would
cost $.25 per shot with T7 and $.52 with BH. STILL 108% MORE! Cost was the point here, right? :?:

I'm starting to wonder if western gave you a free case of the BH..ha ha ha. :wink: Oh, and I did buy a bottle of BH to test. I am a tinkerer.
BTW, you never answered me about the breechplug I offered you.

 

[flounder]

I was reading Bob Shells review of BH 209 at biggamehunt.net. He was noting the high price of BH. "I was told it was due to the holes" (in the powder grains). Western told him it was difficult to manufacture and that raises production costs
You know it is expensive to hire people to drill all those little holes in the powder.
Art
________
Justin Bieber Fan

 

[squirrelhawker]

Well, I agree it is more expensive. If its not worth it then don't buy it that just leaves more for the guys like me that go out to shoot not spend more time cleaning out crud ring than we do shooting. What I can not understand is why all these people who don't want it complain about the price. Lee

Someday it could be a possible choice for me...who knows. Just because it doesnt DIRECTLY affect my ML shooting now, I can still comment on the pricing. I thought that what was this forum was about. If we all thought the same way things would be awful boring. One thing is certain.
If you guys go and buy all the BH209 you can get your hands on, the price will only go UP from here.

 

[DW]

Powder Valley has it for $26.65
http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/

 

[john keyes]

Powder Valley has it for $26.65
http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/

holy cow look at the price of the pyrodex.....! :shock: :shock: