just a 21st century observation of that oft used phrase, "patched round ball". we say this all the time, and i dunno why. i know my elders said it, so therefor doth i. it's as if the word "round" is required to prelude the word "ball", for which the accepted definition of "ball" is, well, something round. a double positive? whatever, its all good. good forum, indeed - thank you.