FEDERAL FireSticks and TRADITIONS NitroFires

[Buck Conner1]

One of the advantages of doing that in my state is there are no muzzleloader restrictions when you use a muzzy in rifle season. So, I can use a sabot......

A group of us (local muzzleloading club) outside of Estes Park Colorado have hunted all seasons; muzzleloading, modern rifle and small game seasons with black powder. We are told we are at a disadvantage according to the DOW but we are legal. The Advantage in Disadvantage is we know the areas we are hunting, know the game hunted, watch what's going on in that same location year around for over 30 plus years where the normal hunter (using the weapon stated for that season) doesn't have this knowledge. Most that hunt the other seasons with the weapon for that season doesn't have a quarter of the knowledge we have gained over the years (we're like Pete, he knows his location and uses that knowledge). :thumbs up:

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[Hanshi]

Sort of like Grimord, I'm a traditional muzzleloader hunter. I use them all year long and have NEVER been or felt at any disadvantage during the regular rifle season. In fact I've often done better on game than my modern rifle friends. Many years ago I was an avid revolver hunter for both large and small game. I used a couple of .357, .41 and .44 magnum for deer and .22LR, .22 mag and .38 spl on small game. I always used the factory open sights and this taught me to get close and shoot straight.

I wouldn't have an inline rifle unless it was a free gift. Even then I'd likely sell it. But they don't bother me and I hope they sell a million of those things. Keeping hunting going forward is the bottom line, I'll just continue to use my traditional rifles. It may not be here yet but it concerns me that the woods may end up filled up with 22nd century technology "muzzleloaders" instead of 18th & 19th century or even 20th and 21st century "muzzleloaders". But regardless what happens I'll still be found sitting behind a bush with a flintlock.

And another thing; the kind of sights used on traditional muzzleloaders is a non-issue simply because if you can't see, you can't shoot! If someone puts a scope on a colonial flintlock that's fine with me. It just means the hunters can see what's in front of them.

 

[Muley Hunter]

That doesn't work for me. The only thing worse than an inline is putting a scope on a sidelock. I can't stand to look at it and i'd never do it.

I can't hunt anymore without a scope. So, an inline is my only option. I'd rather hunt than worry about what others think.

btw The first inline muzzleloader was built in the 1800's.

 

[Idaholewis1]

I never considered a scoped inline to be a disadvantage over a centerfire...at least where I hunt.
I can't argue with using a scoped inline during muzzleloader season. I did it this year with success.

I couldn’t agree more Marty, This is Part of the reason i got rid of my inline Rifles. The ONLY disadvantage i see is you Screwed yourself out of a Quicker Reload if needed? And you have to Clean a Dirty Rifle after you Shoot it 1 Shot. As for accuracy with the Scoped inlines, They are EVERY bit as Accurate as ANY High end Centerfire Rifle.

Do you see any disadvantage here? This was my Scoped Knight Mountaineer at 600 Yards, DUCK SOUP EASY! And this was with my BIG HEAVY Slow Paper Patched Lead. This is MUCH MUCH EASIER to do with the Super High BC Bullets available these days, such as Parker’s, Pittman’s, Etc. And BH209 Pushing them WAY Faster

 

[Muley Hunter]

Good shooting Lewis but would you take that shot on a deer when hunting? It's a common shot with a CF gun

If I remember right that gun weighs 8.5lbs bare. (9.5-10lbs with scope? You can get a light CF with scope at about 7lbs.

At 600 yds a 2nd shot is common.

I can list more. A muzzleloader shouldn't compete with CF guns. It's not what muzzleloaders are about.

I may be using a scoped inline but i'll still sneak in close just like I would with a traditional muzzleloader. The difference is I won't have blurry sights and animals.

 

[Idaholewis1]

Good shooting Lewis but would you take that shot on a deer when hunting? It's a common shot with a CF gun

If I remember right that gun weighs 8.5lbs bare. (9.5-10lbs with scope? You can get a light CF with scope at about 7lbs.

At 600 yds a 2nd shot is common.

I can list more. A muzzleloader shouldn't compete with CF guns. It's not what muzzleloaders are about.

I may be using a scoped inline but i'll still sneak in close just like I would with a traditional muzzleloader. The difference is I won't have blurry sights and animals.

Pete, No I DEFINITELY Would NOT take a Shot like that on ANY Big Game, Be It Muzzleloader or Centerfire, To many things can go Wrong, and they do! It’s just NOT the Right thing to do

That Mountaineer with that Particular 30MM scope was a HEAVY Rig! I don’t know what it Weighed though? But DEFINITELY Heavier than my Few Centerfire Rifles by a Fair Margin

I know PLENTY of guys that would Take a Shot at Big Game that Far away and NEVER think Twice about doing it. As you can see in the Video above, i am very capable of doing that Shot Day n and Day out, But i stil would NEVER Take a Shot like that on Big Game. To me, that is a VERY unethical thing to do. I was taught better than that Coyotes, Vermin, I would take that Shot at them ANY, and every day of the Week

 

[Muley Hunter]

I agree. I like getting close and still did it when I used a CF gun. However, if someone is going to do it. It's easier with a CF gun. The CF bullet is going so much faster with a much better BC.

Before getting into muzzleloaders in 1980 I always shoot a Win 94 in 30-30. It was perfect for my timber hunting. I did mess around with a Rem 700 in .270 for a short time. I couldn't believe how easy it was to shoot long range with it.

Anyway, not a big deal. We're all entitled to our opinions. This will be my first year hunting with an inline. If I still have it when hunting season rolls around. I've been known to have an inline with the intention of hunting with it but always sold it before the hunt came. We'll see if I make it this time.

 

[Idaholewis1]

The Smokeless inline Rigs of Today are what FASCINATE Me, GREAT BALLZ OF FIRE!! They have them things BLOWING the Doors off BIG Centerfire/Cartridge Rifles with EASE, the .338 Lapua Magnum has been known as one of the Long Range KINGS for years, Some of these Smokeless Muzzleloaders are MELTING the Doors off a .338 Lapua Magnum Imagine a 350 Grain .45 Cal Bullet Traveling at 3,800 FPS, That is HOTROD .223 Velocities with a little 30-40 Grain Bullet. That is What Hankins .45 Cal “Cyclops” Smokeless Muzzleloader will do with a 350 Grain Bullet, UNREAL HORSE POWER! He shoots a piece of AR 500 Plate Armor and MELTS a Hole Through it like it wasn’t even there, MIND BOGGLING Power!! For comparison Sake, A .338 Lapua Magnum with a 300 Grain Bullet is DARN LUCKY to Break 2,700 FPS with a HOT Load. Hankins .45 Cal “Cyclops” Is so far ahead of that, it doesn’t hardly make Sense that it’s even possible? But it is! Another way of Looking at it, That 350 Grain Bullet is Generating 11,224 Ft lbs of Muzzle Energy, A .458 Win Mag with a 500 Grain Bullet with a HOT load at 2,000 FPS is Generating 4,442 Ft pounds of Energy. See what i mean? It’s UNREAL

Being a Gun guy, that kinda thing Fascinates me. Looking Back, i wish i had Built one of them instead of Messing with the Knight Mountaineer. if i ever venture back toward inlines, i would Love to have one Built, Probably a .40 Cal, HEAVY Bench Gun

Practical? NO! But I would enjoy Tinkering with it!

Their are SERIOUS advantages to a Smokeless Muzzleloader over a Centerfire Cartridge Gun, You have NO BRASS Cases to deal with (Which is a SERIOUS WEAK Link with Cartridge Guns) The Barrel is the Case No dealing with Jumping Bullets to the Lands etc., The Barrel is Rifled all the Way Down. Simply Dump your Charge in, Shove a Bullet Down, Prime, and GO TIME. A Smokeless ML is FAR and away SUPERIOR to a Cartridge Gun in my opinion. ONLY disadvantage to a Cartridge/Centerfire Gun is a Slower Reload.

 

[Idaholewis1]

I agree. I like getting close and still did it when I used a CF gun. However, if someone is going to do it. It's easier with a CF gun. The CF bullet is going so much faster with a much better BC.

You are DEFINITELY Right, The Centerfire is MUCH MUCH easier to pull off Shots like that.

Here, my .308 Win at 750 Yards, Bullet is right About 10 Feet above the Target At it’s Highest Point in the Rainbow. You can actually See the Vapor trail of my Bullet in the Video.

 

[Idaholewis1]

My 600 Yard Knight Mountaineer Muzzleloader Video above, That Bullet is 31-32 Feet Above the Target at it’s Highest Point Yep, there’s a REALLY Big Difference!

 

[Muley Hunter]

Part of the problem with the advance in muzzleloaders is that states will feel that muzzleloaders don't need a season of their own.

I still wish we had a primitive season. Maybe not having to wear blaze orange. Just a PRB and primitive sights. I'd struggle but i'd just deal with it. Thinking like this is what makes me wonder why I have an inline. I'm thinking more for the game than me. Which is a good thing. I've never wounded an animal. I couldn't handle that because i'd know it was all my fault.

You're shooting is impressive Lewis and you should be proud.

 

[[email protected]]

From what I have seen of this new gun it is not going to be legal to hunt with in many states that require the projectile and the powder be loaded from the muzzle. Personally, I have no use for in-line muzzle loaders, but that is just me. I'm old fashioned, and was taught to get close to my game for a killing shot, and not to blast away at long range where there is a change of wounding the game. Give me a good shooting flint lock for my muzzle loading hunting.


I'm sure many will go flying off the handle by my response, but that is my opinion, you are welcome to yours.

I agree, muzzle loader skill if you want modern weapon hunt with one don't morph a muzzle loader into a pseudo center fire and label it a muzzle.loader so you can hunt in the hunting week.

 

[Idaholewis1]

Part of the problem with the advance in muzzleloaders is that states will feel that muzzleloaders don't need a season of their own.

I still wish we had a primitive season. Maybe not having to wear blaze orange. Just a PRB and primitive sights. I'd struggle but i'd just deal with it. Thinking like this is what makes me wonder why I have an inline. I'm thinking more for the game than me. Which is a good thing. I've never wounded an animal. I couldn't handle that because i'd know it was all my fault.

You're shooting is impressive Lewis and you should be proud.

Thank you for the Compliment Pete! I enjoy Tinkering with this Stuff My passion is the Sidelock Rifles, Be it Bullet or Patched Roundball, I just love the Looks, the Fit, Function, and Feel of Sidelock Muzzleloaders. They are FAR more Capable than Most folks Realize. Even BONE STOCK 1:48 Twist Barrels, My Dad is 70-71 Years Old, He Shoots his Old .54 Cal Stock Renegade DEADLY out to a Ranged 200 Yards with my Lyman Plains Bullet, He can Stay in Close to a Pie Plate, about an 8-10” group. He does have a Tang Peep, But is gonna be Changing to a Barrel Mount Skinner Sight. He shoots a Fine ivory bead up front. Nothing fancy

 

[Idaholewis1]

I agree 110% With you guy’s on the Advancement of Muzzleloading, and wanting Special Seasons Etc. That is RIDICULOUS, and something i would Fight against. Speaking of such, I recently got in a Fight over this on another Forum. Think about it, Read my Post above (Post #28) And tell me if those Types of Rifles Deserve ANY form of “Special Hunt”? They are BLOWING THE DOORS OFF Centerfire Cartridge Guns For Crying out Loud!! If you prefer to hunt with Something like that? MORE POWER TO YOU!! But you BELONG in the Regular Centerfire Rifle Season!! These TRUE Muzzleloader Only Hunts that are left out here, should be Left the way they are. No scopes, Sabots, 209s, Etc., It wouldn’t hurt my Feelings a tiny Bit if they Went FULL Primitive, Patched Roundball ONLY. Especially up here in Unit 1, These Elk are almost Extinct here

I have NO PROBLEMS with the High end Inline Rifles, But they DO NOT Belong in these TRUE Muzzleloader ONLY Hunts. I am going off Idaho/Western Legal Rules. Here in Unit 1 we don’t have Anything Special, a Little 6 Day Cow Elk ONLY hunt, 1 mile of Private Land deal, Basically a JOKE! These last remaining Elk we have are in BAD Trouble, and have a Hard Enough Time Surviving here, They get on Private Land and STAY PUT, Then this little Season opens and Guy’s Drive BACK N FORTH in a 2-3 Mile Stretch in Hopes of Catching them Crossing the Rd, We are talking MAYBE 20-30 Head of Elk in that ENTIRE Herd. I would be happy if they Closed this Season and Left these Remaining Elk up here Alone.

Down South, Way down, they Have DEDICATED Muzzleloader ONLY Hunts in Sept. Mostly Draw Stuff. I don’t leave home to Hunt (Prefer to Sleep in my Bed ) So i will Likely never see any of that Stuff in my Lifetime. Idaho is BIG, Boise is like 500 miles, 10 hours from me, I have NEVER Been Down there, and likely never will

 

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Lots of interesting commentary.

For me, this new inline design is a classic example of things to come. You’re not going to please everyone. Unfortunately, for the purest at heart, technological advances will continue to infringe upon one's historic passion. I think we should all strike a compromise and simplify things to come into two hunting categories.

Have a scope-less Primitive Weapons Category: Selfbows, Longbows, Recurves, Crossbows/Compounds and Traditional Sidelocks ( sabotless only ). Then have a scoped Modern Weapons Category for Centerfires (including Handguns), Shotguns, Traditional (sabots allowed)/Inline Muzzleloaders and Compound/Crossbows. The Primitive folks could also hunt in the Modern Category hunting season.

Thoughts?

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p.s. If it doesn't load both the powder and the projectile from the muzzle, then I wouldn't consider it a "Muzzleloader"

Yes, never thought to prohibit new weapons, just keep them separate from the primitive muzzle loader class. It is a special class of its own why should it be infringed upon? Put new modern with new modern. Problem solved.

 

[bobbythehunter]

Someone hit the nail on the head. It's going the other way. Here in the east wildlife managers will do anything they can to add hunters to the system and thereby collect more money. Even more importantly they want increased harvests in most zones. With all the development it's very hard to keep whitetail populations from expanding beyond the carrying capacity of the habitat. More precise accurate and reliable muzzloaders theoretically means more kills. In CT you could take at least 8 whitetails of which 4 can be bucks if you hunt all the seasons. More if you hunt near the coast. We have a season where landowners can use rifles while those not owning land are using bows and crossbows! At least during muzzloader everyone relegated to one shot loaded from muzzle using black powder or substitute. If the moderns are more accurate and reliable that's a good thing I'm the eyes of wildlife managers. With regard to ethical kills it always come down to the hunter and not the firearm.

Just my opinion.

 

[White Fox]

Is there really more range? And can the average guy make use of it? In Colorado the early ML seasons are restricted to arms that load from the front, with loose powder and projectile, no sabots, no scopes. Most of the folks I see on sight in days are using a solid lead bullet or one of the skirted bullets, very few intend to hunt with a round ball. If hunting with an ML in the modern rifle seasons anything goes as long as it meets minimum caliber and weight requirements.

The very best of the ML bullets out there are still a big, blunt blob with a very low ballistic coefficient. Once range exceeds 100 yards they really start to drop fast. How many people can estimate range to within plus or minus 25 yards once the target is beyond 100 yards? The best I can judge is close enough, or too far.

The most important thing I did to improve my ML hunting success was to take a Bow Hunter Education Course. Archery hunters have an effective range of about 40 yards. Our MLs are best used at 100 yards or less, with 75 or 80 being more responsible. The class taught me the advantages of hunting from ambush, paying attention to wind direction, scouting in advance, and hunting territory you know. On the other hand, I find slow/still hunting in pinon-juniper jungles to be exciting- ten or less steps, stop, look and listen. Check your six twice! You better be ready, 'cause the shot will be short and fast!

 

[Muley Hunter]

You're preaching to the choir.

 

[Buck Conner1]

Amen .....

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[Dennis Olson]

If it doesn't load from the muzzle, it is not a "muzzleloader".

Even an original Halls breech loading flintlock from 1819, or the earlier screw breech loading flintlocks, aren't legal for a "muzzleloading only" season. Not even if you loaded it from the muzzle, since it can be loaded from the breech.
All the various state regulations I've seen say a" muzzleloader" "... can only be loaded from the muzzle." One reason a C&B revolver isn't legal to use in ML season: it isn't loaded from the muzzle.

A cap and ball revolver can be loaded from the muzzle as long ad the chambers line up with the barrel.