BH209 first time

[ultratec00]

Went out this morning to test some BH209. I didn't have a whole lot of time so just tested a 100 gr weighted load, 200 gr shockwaves, w/ Fed 209A primer. I shot a group for comparison w/ my hunting load of T7 mag pellets, same bullet, and Rem Kleanbore primer. As expected, 3 touching at 100 yards. Cleaned the bore thoroughly then fired 6 rounds of BH209. Kick seemed comparable to the T7 pellets. Group was about 1.5" high compared to the T7 load. Group size was around 1.5". Okay, but nothing to brag about. I did swab between shots with dry patch. There did seem to be a very slight crud ring with BH209. I'll try 110 gr next time out. Going to be hard to beat the T7 magnum pellets if they continue to shoot like they do, at least in my PH.

 

[cayuga]

They claim you do not have to swab with Blackhorn but you're not the first to do that. Maybe you are on to something with a dry swab. Did it swab hard?

Sounds like some good shooting...

 

[Lee 9]

Swabing with BH causes the group to open. Lee

 

[ultratec00]

They claim you do not have to swab with Blackhorn but you're not the first to do that. Maybe you are on to something with a dry swab. Did it swab hard?

Sounds like some good shooting...

I did it out of habit more so to see what residue was left. Surprising that there was quite a bit of residue on the patch.

 

[ultratec00]

Swabing with BH causes the group to open. Lee

How so? This was a dry patch, not wet then dry like is typically done with standard BP or a substitute. I was curious if there was any apparent crud ring or residue near the breach. I wouldn't think a dry patch would be detrimental to accuracy with BH209.

 

[John S]

In my Encore and KP1, I find accuracy to be best when I just load and shoot, no patching between shots. The last shot seems to ram down just as easily as the first in both rifles.

 

[Morris]

Same here I shot 20 in a row with out swabing no problem T 7 i would have to clean after 6. Shockley gold was better than T7 as far as cleaning.

 

[Busta]

Went out this morning to test some BH209. I didn't have a whole lot of time so just tested a 100 gr weighted load, 200 gr shockwaves, w/ Fed 209A primer. I shot a group for comparison w/ my hunting load of T7 mag pellets, same bullet, and Rem Kleanbore primer. As expected, 3 touching at 100 yards. Cleaned the bore thoroughly then fired 6 rounds of BH209. Kick seemed comparable to the T7 pellets. Group was about 1.5" high compared to the T7 load. Group size was around 1.5". Okay, but nothing to brag about. I did swab between shots with dry patch. There did seem to be a very slight crud ring with BH209. I'll try 110 gr next time out. Going to be hard to beat the T7 magnum pellets if they continue to shoot like they do, at least in my PH.

ultratec00,

Please tell me you weren't shooting 100 grains BH209 by WEIGHT? If you were shooting 100 grains BH209 by WEIGHT, that would be like shooting 145 grains BH209 by VOLUME. You also mentioned shooting 110 grains next time out, I hope you meant VOLUME and not WEIGHT. 110 grains BH209 by WEIGHT would be the equivelant of 160 grains BH209 by VOLUME. :shock:

No wonder you had a crud ring!

120 grains BH209 by VOLUME is equivelant to 150 grains Black Powder/Pyrodex/3 pellets, that is also the highest recommended load from Western.

Just remember that 100 grains BH209 By VOLUME is equivelant to 70 grains BH209 by WEIGHT. If you want to figure out any load of BH209 take the VOLUME charge and multiply it by 0.70 (70%) for the WEIGHT equivelant.

Example: 110 grains VOLUME x 0.70 = 77 grains WEIGHT.

BE SAFE!

 

[ultratec00]

Not to worry, I went by the sticky posted at the beginning of this forum which does differ a little by your conversion factor

" Blackhorn 209 VOLUME to WEIGHT calculator:

VOLUME in GRAINS BH209 / 1.5 = WEIGHT in GRAINS BH209

OR... VOLUME in GRAINS BH209 X 0.667 = WEIGHT in GRAINS BH209"

I was shooting 67 gr by weight of BH209. Which is the equivalent of 100 gr volume by the conversion factor listed above.

ultratec00,

Please tell me you weren't shooting 100 grains BH209 by WEIGHT? If you were shooting 100 grains BH209 by WEIGHT, that would be like shooting 145 grains BH209 by VOLUME. You also mentioned shooting 110 grains next time out, I hope you meant VOLUME and not WEIGHT. 110 grains BH209 by WEIGHT would be the equivelant of 160 grains BH209 by VOLUME. :shock:

No wonder you had a crud ring!

120 grains BH209 by VOLUME is equivelant to 150 grains Black Powder/Pyrodex/3 pellets, that is also the highest recommended load from Western.

Just remember that 100 grains BH209 By VOLUME is equivelant to 70 grains BH209 by WEIGHT. If you want to figure out any load of BH209 take the VOLUME charge and multiply it by 0.70 (70%) for the WEIGHT equivelant.

Example: 110 grains VOLUME x 0.70 = 77 grains WEIGHT.

BE SAFE!

 

[LFM]

Seems that we get confused as to weight vs volume. Since most of us not as experienced mistake the amount.

Since like myself I have only used the Pellets and now trying to convert to loose powder and switching to BH 209 Powder.

Seems to be a learning curve...

LFM

 

[Busta]

ultratec00,

I was just giving you the multiplier that Western uses (0.70), my personal multiplier is 0.69. You will see ranges from 0.66 to 0.72 or so, just wanted to make sure you were not going to try 110 grains by WEIGHT, that might not be good.

110 grains VOLUME works real well in my 26" barreled Knight DE MHC.

 

[Lee 9]

ultratec00
I have shot up 7 cans now and the fact that my groups opened up instead of tightening up when I wiped or swabed bothered me for a while had a hard time getting a combo going that put the first shot in the group to, maybe I am just a bit slow when it comes to finding out what it takes but now that I am getting half inch groups when conditions happened to be perfect and the first shot goes in the group I am not going to be changing any thing. Lee

 

[toddpipkin]

When I spoke to Blackhorn, they gave me only the 0.7 multiplier, to get the weight of 209 to be equivalent to a volumetric charge of true black or other substitutes. I didn't ask specifically about a maximum charge in my Omega.

Since it is rated for 150 gr. (volume) of black or subs, I figured that 105 gr. (by weight) of 209 would be the max.

But now I see that Busta says -

120 grains BH209 by VOLUME is equivelant to 150 grains Black Powder/Pyrodex/3 pellets, that is also the highest recommended load from Western.

Busta, did you get that directly from Western?

Should I consider 84 gr. weight maximum?

 

[Bucker]

BH 209 and Nikon BDC Omega

Being a DA** can someone give out the equivalent of 150 grains of T7 (which is what the Nikon scope is based on ) in BH 209 measure? Not weight, measure. I have been pouring 110 grains measured. I love that scope and powder but am no math guy?? Thanks to you all.

 

[LFM]

I am like you but I though the max of T7 was 120 grains but many here don't recommend using that much for the best performance from a Muzzleloader. They say that it is 90 to 110 grains of Pyrodex and about 100 or so of T7. You might get better groups with less, more does not always mean better with powder in a ML and sounds like you are trying to get more distance shots.

Hope you get it figured out. Sorry I don't do math that good either.

LFM

 

[Busta]

When I spoke to Blackhorn, they gave me only the 0.7 multiplier, to get the weight of 209 to be equivalent to a volumetric charge of true black or other substitutes. I didn't ask specifically about a maximum charge in my Omega.

Since it is rated for 150 gr. (volume) of black or subs, I figured that 105 gr. (by weight) of 209 would be the max.

But now I see that Busta says -

120 grains BH209 by VOLUME is equivelant to 150 grains Black Powder/Pyrodex/3 pellets, that is also the highest recommended load from Western.

Busta, did you get that directly from Western?

Should I consider 84 gr. weight maximum?

todd,

Here is the BH209 site, you can read all about it here.

http://www.blackhorn209.com/

To answer your questions, yes I got that from Western.

Yes you should consider 84 gr WEIGHT BH209 as the maximum in MAGNUM (150 gr capable) muzzleloaders.

120 gr BH209 VOLUME x 0.7 (Westerns Multiplier) = 84 gr WEIGHT BH209.


DISCLAIMER: If you really want to be confused, read further.


Everybody needs to understand, these new Black Powder Substitutes (BH209 and 777 FFFG)are inherently more efficient (20%) than Black Powder (777 FFG about 15%). You need to adjust your loads accordingly.

First, you must understand the STANDARD powder is Black Powder. In it's original configuration, 100 grains WEIGHT was actually 100 grains VOLUME. Thus the volume measure was essentially your portable scale.

The standard VOLUME measure has been around forever, and are based on that Black Powder standard.

Now enters the Black Powder Substitutes and one of the fist that is still around today is Pyrodex. Pyrodex is also 15% more efficient than Black Powder, BUT ONLY BY WEIGHT. Pyrodex was formulated to be the equivelant to Black Powder by VOLUME (the standard). You get about 15 more shots out of a POUND of Pyrodex than a POUND of Black Powder, since Black Powder and the BP Subs are actually sold by WEIGHT. Follow me?

Then came along a whole bunch of BP Substitutes in no particular order. Black Canyon Powder, Black Mag (now Black Mag '3), Clean Shot (now American Pioneer Powder), Clear Shot (Goex), Triple Se7en, Pinnacle, Shockey's Gold, Blackhorn 209, and now IMR White Hots (to be introduced at 2009 SHOT Show). Not all of these powders are created equally, they range in size from road gravel to talcum powder (slight exageration).

I won't bore you with the details of all of them, and yes I have tried them. Got the empty, and some not-so-empty jugs to prove it.

Now, where the hell was I going with this before I got off on this tangent? Oh yeah, most of these powders are formulated to be approximate equivelants by VOLUME measurement, with the exception of the most efficient ones. Triple Se7en LOOSE powder, Black Mag '3, and now Blackhorn 209 need to be reduced in VOLUME.

I'll have to finish this later, got company.

 

[art sehnke]

BH209

:? I guess that my rifle just plain likes 80 grains of BH209 with everything I've tried. I started last May with Powerbelts. Then I tried Hornady FPB's, TC Shockwaves (250 gr, & Hornady SST's & Hornady XTP's(240 gr. in .44 & .45 cal). All groups were about 2" or less. Then in July I started going up & Up higher with the powder charges from 90 to 110 grains. my groups all got worse!!! I tried a number of bullet/Sabot combos to no avail. Even bought a new scope. I went from fixed 4X to a 3x9x40. Same old stuff.
Last week I went back to 80- grains and shot 4 groups of different bullets & was back near the bull w 2-1/4", 2", 2" & 1-1/8". I guess I'll stay with 80 grains. That should still be fast enough for any Whitetail I shoot at. My longest distance would be 100 yards.
The rifle is a CVA Kodiak Magnum.
Art S.

 

[toddpipkin]

Thank you very much, Busta!!

I'm kinda new at this, but old enough and with enough experience and hard-earned scars, to know that it is ALWAYS better to learn as much as possible from the experience of others, rather than from mistakes made on my own!!

Now, any suggestions as to what load of BH209, by WEIGHT, will give me the correct velocity to use the Nikon BDC-250 scope reticle efficiently?

I'm using the Barnes 250-gr. Tipped Spit-Fire bullet in the Super-Glide sabot.

I know that each rifle has it's own favorite loads, but from what I have read, it seems that muzzle-loading rifles don't seem to be quite as picky as high-powered cartridge rifles, and that a good load in one rifle will likely be a good start in a similar one.

Even so, I realize that any suggestions will be only starting points for further experimentation with my specific rifle, to find it's specific favorite load.

Any suggestions which may help me save load development time, and money, will be greatly appreciated!

 

[toddpipkin]

Shot mine with the iron sights at 100, got @ 3" groups with these old eyes at dusk. That was with 70gr. BH 209 by weight, and with 75gr. and 80gr. Could definitely tell the difference in recoil and velocity at each step!

Got my Nikon mounted today, can't get to the range until Friday.

Since the BDC reticle is calibrated for a 150gr. (volume) load of true black and most bp substitutes, and BlackHorn says that 120gr. (volume) of BH209 is equivalent to 150gr. (volume) of those, and BlackHorn also says that to convert volumetric charges to weighed charges, use a multiplier of 0.7.....

The first load I am going to try with the scope is 84gr. (weight) of BH209.

I'll let you know how it does.

 

[saxman1]

Try that 200 grn SW with 90 grn BH 209 also
My Encore likes that load and with a 270 PB AT Plat