An Advantage Of Slow Twist Barrels

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Pretty sure most rifles that are 1:48 have .010 and deeper rifling except T/C.
T/C decided to rifle theirs at about .004 with a compromise 1:48 twist
They did this so the could shoot RB and Conical.
They did however make a few with 1:66 I believe just for RB, but just a limited run
and the barrels are marked as such.
The T/C's are finicky about patch and ball combo.
I am thinking about replacing mine with a GM 1:66

I replaced a TC 50 that just didn't shoot straight anymore with a GM 50 1 in 66 from Track of the Wolf and that barrel is sweet with good lube, .010 patches and 50gr on a target range. Best investment for the used TC I picked up.

 

[Hanshi]

As OldMtnMan posted, original Hawkens normally had 1-48" rifling and it was cut with good, deep grooves. But also remember that considering most all original rifles and longrifles, 1-48" was a fairly standard twist. The difference, as always, is that the grooves were good and deep. European jeagers often had even faster twists.

Okay then, what is "deep"? My .54 has grooves of not much more than .006", this is easily good enough for prb - twist rate is 1-66". All others are .010" (one) with four being .012" and two others at .016". One has gain-twist rifling, three have a 1-48", two have 1-56" and one is, as yet, undetermined. The .54 shoots tiny groups with charges of 3F from 60 grains to 110 grains. All the others shoot tiny groups as well and the exact charge makes only minor differences.

Black powder is an accuracy powder and gives fine results in most anything, assuming the other components are well chosen. BP is easy to get along with with none of smokeless' temperamental attitude. BP is not fussy and usually shoots great with a wide range of charges.

 

[Renegadehunter]

My 1:48 factory TC Renegade is also very picky about its RB loads. Currently the best I've found is a .530 ball with an .018" pillow tick patch, .0155" compressed with calipers, this results in a very solid smack needed on the short starter to get it to start into the bore and a palm saver is much easier on the hand when compressing the PRB onto the powder at the end of the loading process. Very little lube has to be used for best results. What I found odd though was I discovered that it shot 75 grains of 2f the best, but when I developed a 3f load for it 80 grains was the best. Makes me wonder if I didn't start low enough with the 3f charges and if I will find that the groups come back in up around 90-100 grains of 2f...I only went up to 80 when working on a 2f load because the groups at 80 opened up compared to 75 grains. In the theory of a rifle shooting a good "low" charge and then another good "high" charge.
It also MUST be swabbed frequently or it takes off to the left a bunch. The 3rd shot without swabbing hits around 10" left of POA.
I recently bought some .535" RB to try along with picking up some linen patch material that measures about .007" thick compressed. I haven't tried a bigger ball with thinner patching in it yet.
This is the fun of these things to me, all the different variables that can effect accuracy. I've found 3 or 4 combos that are plenty fine for hunting but I continue to experiment just for the fun of it.
I now have an older CVA .50 with a 1:66 twist to work up a load for, I can't wait to see what it can do.

 

[Hylander]

That is what I have found with T/C is needs a big ball and tight patch and swabbed for any accuracy.
Can't wait till tomorrow to shoot the CVA.

 

[BP Addict]

AMEN! And the rifling depth in the 1-48" bores is THE key factor that seems to escape some shooters. :thumbs up:

Some manufacturers have deeper grooves in their 1/48 twist barrels. A Dixie catalog is great for pointing out which ones.

 

[BP Addict]

I collect and shoot CVA guns that were manufactured in 1990 or before. They mostly had 1/66 Round Ball barrels. 1/48 was an accessory barrel. The exceptions were the Frontier Carbine and Squirrel rifle (1/48), plus the Stalker and Apollo rifles (1/32).

 

[Fyrstyk]

I collect and shoot CVA guns that were manufactured in 1990 or before. They mostly had 1/66 Round Ball barrels. 1/48 was an accessory barrel. The exceptions were the Frontier Carbine and Squirrel rifle (1/48), plus the Stalker and Apollo rifles (1/32).

I have an early CVA squirrel rifle in .32 cal and it is a 1:56" twist.

 

[burlesontom]

I always thought TC geared their rifles more for conicals than RB shooting. I had a 50 cal Hawken that with lighter charges would shoot three shot groups at 50 yards that were touching. By try anything close to 100grs and it didn't group that well. More like 5" groups at 100 yards.

My Cabelas Investarms made guns are 1/48 twist and show to have .010 deep rifling per Dixie since they used to sell the same guns. And they do just fine with patched ball. In the .45 I use no more than 70grs of 3F and the 54 gets no more than 85grs 2F and does well with that or down to around 50grs 3F for target shooting.

Of course the Lyman Plains Rifle loves RB with its 1/60 twist and .010 rifling. It even does well enough with a Lee Improved Minnie for deer hunting out to 75 yards or so.

I bought a Pedersoli Scout Carbine 50 caliber that is supposed to have .006 deep rifling but I have only shot around 15 shots through it off hand at 50 yards. It hit the steel plate each shot but no real idea of what it will do.

And last I just bought an Investarms rifle in 50 cal that looks for all the world to be another Cabelas Hawken. But its not marked Cabelas. And it has a really big difference from a Cabelas gun. It has a 1/60 twist just like a Lyman Plains rifle but instead of a 5 groove barrel it has a 6 groove barrel. The date stamp on it is around 1982 IIRC. I haven't shot it yet but it should be a round ball shooter deluxe. And as far as I can tell it has never been fired. If it was ever shot it was totally cleaned to perfection and not shot much if at all. I can't wait to get this one out.

 

[burlesontom]

One thing I forgot to add to my post above is that I am a big believer in adding a patch under my PRB. Its like the story of using wasp nest under a patched ball as a firewall. Instead I just use some of my patches and add one to the bore then seat the PRB on top of it and push it down the bore. I like to do this with heavier charges.

I have picked up many of my ball patches after firing and the ball patches look so good you could almost reuse them. The firewall patch on the other hand is pretty much scorched. If you are having trouble with blown patches you might want to give this trick a try. It may not be you patches or patch thickness thats the problem.

And my 1/48 guns shoot my Lee REAL and Improved Minnies very well. My 45 Cabelas Hawken loves the Lee 200gr REAL bullet.

 

[afishhunter]

I always thought TC geared their rifles more for conicals than RB shooting.

Of course they did!
I heard they had a small/short limited run of slow twist PRB barrels once, but I've never spotted one.

T/C never made and sold round balls or round ball molds that I know of; just their Maxi-Ball and Maxi-Hunter conical bullets and molds.

 

[Hanshi]

I normally use an op wad (leather, felt, etc) when hunting and it can help quite a bit. You're a much better shot than me, but I'd think 5" at 100 yards is good accuracy.

 

[burlesontom]

Of course they did!
I heard they had a small/short limited run of slow twist PRB barrels once, but I've never spotted one.

T/C never made and sold round balls or round ball molds that I know of; just their Maxi-Ball and Maxi-Hunter conical bullets and molds.

If you watch ever once in a while the TC guns with a slow twist RB barrel will come up for sale on Gunbroker. And they sell for a premium. You can't blame TC for not selling a round ball mold. Its hard to beat the Lee price of $20 or less and swaged round balls can be had easier than having to cast your own. Selling a mold for their conicals makes sense.

 

[burlesontom]

I normally use an op wad (leather, felt, etc) when hunting and it can help quite a bit. You're a much better shot than me, but I'd think 5" at 100 yards is good accuracy.

Actually 5" at 100 yards will work for most deer hunting. But get a 30-30 or a Mini-14 (old version) and all the AR fan boys will tell you your gun is worthless if it won't shoot a 1" group at 100 yards. And I secretly suspect those fan boys can't shoot a 1" open sighted group at that range either. I try to keep my BP shooting to around 75 yards for hunting anyway. And closer is even better. I am more of a hunter than a shooter. I get more pleasure from getting close to make a kill than a long range sniper shot.

My gun dealer/gunsmith once held his fingers and thumbs touching to form a circle that is about 5" and said thats all the accuracy you need to kill a deer at 100 yards. He was an old guy like mentioned in your sig line. And yes he was worth listening to. He knew stuff.:thumbs up:

 

[afishhunter]

If you watch ever once in a while the TC guns with a slow twist RB barrel will come up for sale on Gunbroker. And they sell for a premium. You can't blame TC for not selling a round ball mold. Its hard to beat the Lee price of $20 or less and swaged round balls can be had easier than having to cast your own. Selling a mold for their conicals makes sense.

I never tried the Lee round balls. I've always used the Hornady, which is what all the local shops stock.
I doubt there is any difference between the two brands. For all I know, both brands are made at the same place by a third party, and go into different boxes.

Casting my own is not an option. I don't have the equipment, or a workplace to do it.

I wonder if T/C was "unhappy" when someone bought a Maxi Ball or Maxi Hunter mold. After all, that was one person (possibly more than one) they would not be selling those bullets to.

 

[Smoketown]

It been almost 50 years but, I do remember buying Thompson Center round ball blocks when I bought the rifle at Martin B. Rettings in Culver City, California.

Still have it and shoot it! (Although, not as often as I would like.)

Cheers,
Smoketown

https://www.google.com/search?q=tho...yKEM&ei=wfRHXtj6AZHq_AaYroUo&bih=907&biw=1680

Stolen from the "Cast Boolets" site ...

February 7, 2007
below are a list of facts on t/c mould blocks i hope they are found to be useful.
1. T/C DID NOT MAKE A 58 CAL MAXI HUNTER MOULD FOR SALE, BUT THEY DO SELL THE CAST BULLETS.
2. T/C MOULDS WERE MADE FOR A SHORT TIME THROUGH BY SHILOH, UNTIL BUSINESS PROBLEMS BETWEEN T/C AND SHILOH ERUPTED.
3. T/C ALSO HAD FOR A EXTREMELY SHORT PERIOD OHAUS PRODUCE MOULDS FOR THEM.
3. T/C WOULD PUT NEW LABELS OVER OLD ONES ON THE MOULD BOXES WHEN THEY NEEDED TO. SO SOME OF THE BOXES HAVE A LABEL UNDER, CAREFULLY REMOVING THE TOP LABEL SOMETIMES REVEALS RARE EARLY BOXES OR MISPRINTS.
4. T/C MOULD HANDLES ORIGINALLY HAD BRASS FINISHES, WHICH USUALLY WORE AWAY EASILY. NEW HANDLES WITH BRASS ARE RARE.
5. OLD SHILOH MOULDS AND HANDLES WILL INTERCHANGE WITH T/C MOULDS AND HANDLES.

 

[Hanshi]

The only time I ever hunted with a Hornady swaged ball was when a friend gave me a box of them to use in my (then) recently acquired .54. I've always been a "caster" and even cast up bullets for my revolvers & pistols. I'm frugal - some many say cheap, and casting has always been the cheapest way to feed my frontloaders and cf revolvers. Since I did shoot large quantities of ammo I bought many thousands of commercial bullets. If you're set up to do it casting is the way to go. I probably own around three dozen molds at least.

 

[Winter Hawk]

I never tried the Lee round balls. I've always used the Hornady, which is what all the local shops stock.

Lee doesn't sell balls that I am aware of. I believe the OP was talking about the Lee bullet blocks being a whole lot cheaper than what Lyman and others sell theirs for. Since you don't cast, it's a moot point for you.

 

[Muley Hunter]

If you don't cast and buy the balls. I like October's the best. Cast and very consistent. Cheaper than the commercial ones too.

http://www.octobercountry.com/cast-round-balls-45-to-8-bore/