What type of wad are you using?

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A coned muzzle, IS NOT, and I repeat, IS NOT, the equivalent of Thompson/Center's QLA (Quick Load Accurizer) muzzle treatment.

The QLA is nothing more than a fancy term for a deep counterbore at the muzzle without any rifling. It is supposed to allow the shooter to fully insert a bullet into the barrel without having to initially force the base of the bullet into the rifling. The idea was to enhance accuracy by NOT damaging the base of the bullet. What happened in reality was that because of manufacturing flaws & tooling wear, more than 90% of the barrel's produced with a QLA muzzle were slightly, to greatly off center from the bore. Which meant that the bullet entered the bore canted at an angle, and even worse, left the muzzle upon ignition spinning off center due to the gases not surrounding the bullet evenly until they had dispersed. This caused erratic flight, which meant miserable accuracy.

A coned muzzle, on the other hand, is NOTHING MORE, than a radiused crown. It is NO DEEPER than a normal crown. Starting with a crown that is cut at a distinct, measureable angle, such as 60°, it is smoothed over, usually with the pad of one's thumb pressing against some form of abrasive paper/cloth.

Starting with courser grits, and ending with finer grits.

Pressing against the crown, rotate the barrel back & forth 20 times, stop, turn the barrel 90° (1) *** Pressing against the crown, rotate the barrel back & forth 20 times, stop, rotate the barrel 90° (2) *** Pressing against the crown, rotate the barrel back & forth 20 times, stop, rotate the barrel 90° (3) *** Pressing against the crown, rotate the barrel back & forth 20 times, stop, rotate the barrel 90° ***

This completes one full revolution of radiusing the muzzle. If using three different grits of abrasive paper, it should take no more than 1-2 full revolutions per grit size to turn a straight angle crown into a radiused crown, or coned muzzle.

What a coned muzzle does is allow a tightly patched ball to enter the rifling grooves in a smooth fashion. Specifically, for the bunched up cloth material surrounding the ball to fill the grooves without tearing on the leading edges of the lands.

All I know is that I stumbled upon the "SECRET" for this with my first .45 caliber longrifle at age 17. I coned the muzzle per instructions in Muzzle Blasts magazine in 1970/1971. That first rifle would shoot minute of angle, 5-shot accuracy at 100 yards, with a spit patched blue jeans material & a 0.445" diameter ball. All it took was a gentle rap on a short starter to get the ball/patch started. Hickory ramrod the rest of the way, choked up with 6"-8" strokes.

Same thing with my next 2 rifles, both Getz barrels. One in .50 caliber, and the other one in .62 caliber. Both came from the factory with coned muzzles, one of the only barrel manufacturers to offer such a service. Bobby Hoyt is another.
[/QUOTE]
I know all about Daryls method on ALR been doing that for yrs ! I do not call that coning but arguing semantics (I call it a target crowning / does not change a thing I"ve stated . Not here to argue /I:M done with your discussion as I have advised the OP now leave it to him to find out for himself what/who is right . I already know as I shoot almost every day and do what works for me , hence the advise not opinion ! /Ed
 
A wad under a patched ball should NOT be necessary. If your accuracy is improved with a wad under a patched ball, then you are doing SOMETHING WRONG. It's the patch COMPLETELY FILLING the grooves around the ball that should be completing the seal, NOT A WAD.

I would suggest you that is not always the case. Back in the day when I was shooting PRB's at Rhondy events - it was a necessity for me to use a treated wad under the PRB. Later switched to the plastic Ballistic Sub bridge. The necessity came because I was loading and shooting wimpy volume loads of T7. T7 burns so hot that it will easily burn through even a treated patch and begin melting the ball. The wad/bridge solved that problem.

Regardless of the depth of the grooves in your barrel, there is a patch thickness for the particular ball diameter that you wish to shoot, that ABSOLUTELY will create a proper seal behind the ball so that the combustion gases can't escape around the ball to scorch the patch, blow holes in the patch, or cause a loss in velocity.

A properly coned, or radiused, crown will greatly help in getting a tight fitting ball/patch combination past the muzzle. There are some barrels that will ONLY achieve their best accuracy with a lead ball the same diameter as the bore. Believe it, or not, a soft, pure lead ball, say 0.500" diameter for a .50 caliber bore with a 0.532" groove diameter, and 0.016" deep round bottom grooves WILL NOT require a dead blow hammer to drive the ball into the barrel. This is for target shooting, not hunting accuracy.

Anyway, to get back to the thrust of this thread. Idaholewis felt that to achieve HIS best target accuracy, he needed a wool wad one caliber larger than the bore diameter of the projectile that he was shooting. Others feel a wad the same size as the bore diameter that they are shooting is adequate. It's all about experimenting in order to find out what the particular barrel that you are shooting RIGHT NOW requires, because I can guarantee you that the rifle's barrel right next to it in your gun safe is going to need something JUST A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT. It always seems to work out that way.

For me I had much better results using a shoot card than a wad or even oversized wad. Again, I believe my problem came because I was using T7 shooting 110 to 129 grain loads. The card and then the bridge solved the problem of melting the bottom of a lead bullet and getting a gas seal behind the bullet.
 
Not many are going to like this but I use MMP black 50 cal Sub bases. These seal the gas very reduces heat on the bottom of the lead bullet. Easy to load and shoot great.

They are not attached to bullet so they deemed legal. I use them with Bull Shops Conicals and full bore Brass/ Cooper or even Copper-lead bullets.

MMP_Sub_Base.jpg


Pushing_Home.jpg
I have tried the MPP sub bases but saw no improvement with pure lead or slightly harder alloy conicals.
 
Not a QLA in the house ,won"t have one . You are not understanding me so I will try to do better ! I did not say try to center over bore, I said start it down the hole regardless of barrel plumb . Yes it might tilt but you will not see it as the conical is going to force it down positioned correctly (unless you have a QLA ) in which case cut it off . Myself like Idaholewis do this without fail every time successfully on sidelocks but now that you mention it neither one of us has a QLA
(avoid them like the plaque ) /never occured to me to mention the possibility /if so sorry but otherwise do as I suggested (or not) . It should not matter inline or sidelock. Your experience is something not experienced by the masses /Ed
Thank you eekjellander, for the clarification, and sorry for the misunderstanding. If you're getting good accuracy, well I can't argue with that.
But let me say the following: if I'm super careful, I can get an oversize .54 Eastern Maine dry felt wad started straight down my .50 bore. I'll push it down a little with my short starter, take a look at it, then sometimes push it all the way down with my range rod, or other times I'll insert a bullet and send it home. I'm pretty sure that it goes down straight and seats nice and flat on the powder. I've been doing this for the last couple of years and just getting mediocre accuracy.
However, any time the wad starts in a tilted position, as you say is ok, and I try to push it down further and hope that it straightens itself out, well that never seems to happen. Start crooked, stays crooked - I suppose until it contacts the powder and then flattens out somewhat. I am dubious about how flat it then sits against the powder. Again, I can't argue against you or anyone else' success with this technique, but question how it can be so.

So, my takeaway from the numerous responses so far, is, "Every rifle has an individual personality and may require techniques or components different than the norm, and this can only be discovered by careful (and sometimes numerous) experimentations".

In my OP I stated that I seemed to get better accuracy with .50 wads than .54. Only further shooting will tell. It was at least reassuring to hear that my rifle may not be the only one in the world to prefer that recipe. Elk season is very near, so it needs to be checked out soon!

Thanks for all the input.
 
I would suggest you that is not always the case. Back in the day when I was shooting PRB's at Rhondy events - it was a necessity for me to use a treated wad under the PRB. Later switched to the plastic Ballistic Sub bridge. The necessity came because I was loading and shooting wimpy volume loads of T7. T7 burns so hot that it will easily burn through even a treated patch and begin melting the ball. The wad/bridge solved that problem.



For me I had much better results using a shoot card than a wad or even oversized wad. Again, I believe my problem came because I was using T7 shooting 110 to 129 grain loads. The card and then the bridge solved the problem of melting the bottom of a lead bullet and getting a gas seal behind the bullet.

sabot loader

I guess it shows my lack of experience with black powder substitutes, in that your above posted experiences NEVER occured to me as possibilities. I will defer to your, and other's experiences with the subs as to what might work, or not, as the case may be.

As far as burning through patches is concerned, the time honored remedy for the problem has always been to move to a thicker patch material, a tighter weave of cotton such as canvas duck, or perhaps even linen, or both.

Thicker patch material will virtually ALWAYS require a very smooth, or radiused crown, otherwise known as a coned muzzle. Anyone who has not experienced loading what they would otherwise consider a ball/patch combination that should be far too tight to get past the muzzle, much less ram down onto the powder charge with EASE, then I say to properly cone/radius the factory, cut angled crown of a barrel intended for shooting patched balls. Then load it with a patch measuring AT LEAST 0.020" thick, and with a ball measuring 0.005" under bore diameter.

Yes, it will take a good rap on a short starter to get the ball started, and past the muzzle. Once it is 6" down the bore, the ball & patch will smoothly slide the balance of the way down onto the powder charge with 6"-8" strokes of the ramrod using NORMAL FORCE.

I only ever had hickory ramrods on my three rifles, and NEVER came close to breaking any of them. A .45, a .50, & a .62 caliber.
 
Wool wads have been used since the early1800’s.
It’s a natural fiber that is readily available.

Good gun, load, bullets - routine… good results expected with some experimenting.

Best of luck.
"Luck" has been eluding me so far.

I have spent a great deal of my spare time, energy, and money over the last 22 years in an attempt to find the best conical for elk ( sabots are illegal in Colorado), and I have yet to find it.
Sometimes I wonder if Tony Knight, the creator of Knight rifles, wasn't on to something many years ago when he said that he gave up on trying to shoot conicals because he couldn't get them to shoot consistently. He then went in the direction of sabots.

More experimentation to follow....
 
"Luck" has been eluding me so far.

I have spent a great deal of my spare time, energy, and money over the last 22 years in an attempt to find the best conical for elk ( sabots are illegal in Colorado), and I have yet to find it.
Sometimes I wonder if Tony Knight, the creator of Knight rifles, wasn't on to something many years ago when he said that he gave up on trying to shoot conicals because he couldn't get them to shoot consistently. He then went in the direction of sabots.

More experimentation to follow....
You might try some of my Lyman Plains conical lubed with IdahoLewis (secret) NASA modified lube ,I understand some members here do well with it!/Ed
 
"Luck" has been eluding me so far.

I have spent a great deal of my spare time, energy, and money over the last 22 years in an attempt to find the best conical for elk ( sabots are illegal in Colorado), and I have yet to find it.
Sometimes I wonder if Tony Knight, the creator of Knight rifles, wasn't on to something many years ago when he said that he gave up on trying to shoot conicals because he couldn't get them to shoot consistently. He then went in the direction of sabots.

More experimentation to follow....

Well I really do not know what to say.... I have shot various conicals both lead and solid Brass/Copper or copper lead bullets and never really had much of a problem.

This currently is my favorite lead conical. .503 x 400 LGP made by Bull Shop Dan.

Bullshop-503x400-LGP.jpg


This bullet was recovered from an elk shot at 185 yards her in Idaho. You can see the impression of the MMP Sub base in the bottom of the bullet.

Dan's conicals have worked very well for me. His NASA lube is really good bullet lube.

These bullets have also worked well for me.

Knurled_325.jpg


Lehigh-500-325.jpg


What rifle are you shooting and what would be your typical load.
 
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I have spent a great deal of my spare time, energy, and money over the last 22 years in an attempt to find the best conical for elk ( sabots are illegal in Colorado), and I have yet to find it.
Sometimes I wonder if Tony Knight, the creator of Knight rifles, wasn't on to something many years ago when he said that he gave up on trying to shoot conicals because he couldn't get them to shoot consistently. He then went in the direction of sabots.

More experimentation to follow....


These Fury bullet may do the job for you?




50fury.jpg
 
goco4game:
Heavy lead conicals have won numerous matches at Friendship (National ML matches) - with factory Knight Rifles as well. (45cal 1:20)
Good groups aren’t difficult- great groups are aren’t as common.
E779CC0A-D5B2-4422-AEBC-F94521B61EE2.jpeg7221C15D-1514-4CD8-A9CC-84EB74E2FBE9.jpeg6EAFF6D9-98C0-4BF2-A8A2-04AA75A38AD9.jpegB438D70E-19E0-4E66-9AA6-8D54418D7901.jpeg
 
You might try some of my Lyman Plains conical lubed with IdahoLewis (secret) NASA modified lube ,I understand some members here do well with it!/Ed
I know my op is very lengthy, but in there it states that I used those very bullets and lube - and the recalcitrant critters still refused to jump into the same hole at 100 yards!!
Well I really do not know what to say.... I have shot various conicals both lead and solid Brass/Copper or copper lead bullets and never really had much of a problem.

This currently is my favorite lead conical. .503 x 400 LGP made by Bull Shop Dan.

Bullshop-503x400-LGP.jpg


This bullet was recovered from an elk shot at 185 yards her in Idaho. You can see the impression of the MMP Sub base in the bottom of the bullet.

Dan's conicals have worked very well for me. His NASA lube is really good bullet lube.

These bullets have also worked well for me.

Knurled_325.jpg


Lehigh-500-325.jpg


What rifle are you shooting and what would be your typical load.
In my OP #1 I go into great detail about rifle, bullet and load.
 
I sometimes wonder if current inline muzzleloading shooters have become somewhat jaded as EVERYBODY expects sub-M.O.A. accuracy from EVERY rifle in their gun safe/stable. The same as they have come to expect; have come to DEMAND from ANY centerfire rifle that they purchase.

Regardless of the propellant of choice; regardless of what material the projectile is made of; regardless of whether a sabot is being used, or not; regardless of whether a sub-base, or a wad of some type is being used; etc , etc., etc., on down the line.

My take on things is somewhat different, I believe, then most of my fellow forum members. Blessed/cursed with terrible eyesight from a very early age. NEVER being able to shoot as well as most of my contemporaries. Although, all three of my flint longrifles (.45, .50, & .62 caliber) were capable of M.O.A. accuracy at 100 yards, both from the bench, and occasionally offhand (when GOD decided to bless me with a good day).

Most of my shooting life I have been disappointed with accuracy, because my eyesight seldom allowed for me to bask in the glory of the "MAGICAL M.O.A". That's what everyone was searching for back in the 50's, 60's, 70's, & 80's. My flintlocks all had that magical M.O.A. accuracy right from the beginning of my shooting muzzleloaders. For me, easy to do off of a bench. Very hard for me to do offhand, maybe once a year.

Since I hated bench rest shooting, I seldom participated in it, unless I was breaking in a new rifle. Once I found the mildest load that gave me a silver dollar size group at 100 yards, I stopped searching for better accuracy. Because, with my eyes, anything better was a pipe dream, and a waste of time.

Since I couldn't see well enough at 100 yards at anytime in my life to ethically kill a deer with iron sights, I early on made a pledge to myself NOT TO EXCEED 60-75 yards with ANY shot on ANY size game animal. From an ant to an elephant.

Most of my life I have had to "settle" for what Col. Jeff Cooper termed Scout Rifle level accuracy. Which is 2 M.O.A. out to whatever is the limiting factor for the rifle in question. For me the limiting factor has always been my eyes, NOT MY RIFLE'S ability to place shot, after shot into the same small space.

My .45 caliber flint longrifle was capable of killing deer in out to 100 yards with 70 grains of fffg black powder, and a 0.445" diameter ball (132.1 grains/pure lead).

My .50 caliber flint longrifle was capable of killing elk out to 100 yards, easily (no through the shoulder blade shots), with 75 grains of fffg black powder, and a 0.495" diameter ball (181.8 grains/pure lead).

My .62 caliber flint longrifle was capable of killing anything in North America, including the big bears that will kill you right back, out to 100 yards with 75-120 grains of fffg black powder, and a 0.615" diameter ball (348.7 grains/pure lead). My east of the Mississippi River powder charge was 75 grains of fffg black powder, which gave me those magical silver dollar size groups of 5 shots at 100 yards. If I had ever hunted west of the Mississippi River, out in the Rocky Mountains, the Sierras, or the Cascades; I probably would have gone looking for a stouter powder charge between 90-120 grains. Something that would have a chance of dropping a grizzly bear coming to a fresh elk kill in its tracks.

As I look back on 50 years of on again, off awhile, on again, muzzleloading shooting, I can see that my lousy eyesight was in its way a blessing of sorts.

GOD knows, I have all kinds of things I am addicted to, but chasing the elusive "Every Shot Through the Same Hole" combination of propellant, wad, patch, ball, lead conical, sabot, jacketed bullet, copper bullet, brass bullet, lead bullet, sub-base, lubricant, sizing die, bullet mold(s), lead alloy(s), etc. HAS NOT been one of them. Make NO MISTAKE about it, I can EASILY see myself going down that path had I just been able to see better as a youth. Or, been introduced to precision target shooting by someone similarly addicted at an age where shooting with a scope would have made some kind of sense to me.

None of those things happened to me. I stuck with iron sights, and flintlock longrifles. I accepted my limitations, especially the 2 M.O.A hunting accuracy limit for my longrifles. And, as a result, found out that a patched ball was a fine killer of thin-skinned, medium-sized game such as the whitetail deer. Even that 132 grain, 0.445" diameter patched ball in my 40" long Douglas GAA .45 caliber barrel.

It's a common myth that a bullet is MANDATORY in order to kill deer. If the double lung shot is made from any reasonable distance, even with the .45 caliber ball, you are almost certain to have both an entrance, and an exit hole on opposite sides of the deer.

If you want to punch through bones, then a .54, .58, .60, or .62 caliber patched ball rifle will be a better choice. Bigger is better, I say. Unless you go stupid crazy with big powder charges, recoil WILL NOT be anything like what most inline shooters are experiencing/have experienced with BH209 & saboted bullets.

On paper, and in ballistic tables lead balls look TERRIBLE. In the real world, they stack up quite well against bullets. Especially, if you find yourself killing most of your deer at ranges under 100 yards. Even more so if you are killing most of your deer at ranges under 75 yards.
 
sabot loader

I guess it shows my lack of experience with black powder substitutes, in that your above posted experiences NEVER occured to me as possibilities. I will defer to your, and other's experiences with the subs as to what might work, or not, as the case may be.

As far as burning through patches is concerned, the time honored remedy for the problem has always been to move to a thicker patch material, a tighter weave of cotton such as canvas duck, or perhaps even linen, or both.

Thicker patch material will virtually ALWAYS require a very smooth, or radiused crown, otherwise known as a coned muzzle. Anyone who has not experienced loading what they would otherwise consider a ball/patch combination that should be far too tight to get past the muzzle, much less ram down onto the powder charge with EASE, then I say to properly cone/radius the factory, cut angled crown of a barrel intended for shooting patched balls. Then load it with a patch measuring AT LEAST 0.020" thick, and with a ball measuring 0.005" under bore diameter.

Yes, it will take a good rap on a short starter to get the ball started, and past the muzzle. Once it is 6" down the bore, the ball & patch will smoothly slide the balance of the way down onto the powder charge with 6"-8" strokes of the ramrod using NORMAL FORCE.

I only ever had hickory ramrods on my three rifles, and NEVER came close to breaking any of them. A .45, a .50, & a .62 caliber.
A coned muzzle and a radiused crown are two very different things.
 
I sometimes wonder if current inline muzzleloading shooters have become somewhat jaded as EVERYBODY expects sub-M.O.A. accuracy from EVERY rifle in their gun safe/stable. The same as they have come to expect; have come to DEMAND from ANY centerfire rifle that they purchase.

Regardless of the propellant of choice; regardless of what material the projectile is made of; regardless of whether a sabot is being used, or not; regardless of whether a sub-base, or a wad of some type is being used; etc , etc., etc., on down the line.

My take on things is somewhat different, I believe, then most of my fellow forum members. Blessed/cursed with terrible eyesight from a very early age. NEVER being able to shoot as well as most of my contemporaries. Although, all three of my flint longrifles (.45, .50, & .62 caliber) were capable of M.O.A. accuracy at 100 yards, both from the bench, and occasionally offhand (when GOD decided to bless me with a good day).

Most of my shooting life I have been disappointed with accuracy, because my eyesight seldom allowed for me to bask in the glory of the "MAGICAL M.O.A". That's what everyone was searching for back in the 50's, 60's, 70's, & 80's. My flintlocks all had that magical M.O.A. accuracy right from the beginning of my shooting muzzleloaders. For me, easy to do off of a bench. Very hard for me to do offhand, maybe once a year.

Since I hated bench rest shooting, I seldom participated in it, unless I was breaking in a new rifle. Once I found the mildest load that gave me a silver dollar size group at 100 yards, I stopped searching for better accuracy. Because, with my eyes, anything better was a pipe dream, and a waste of time.

Since I couldn't see well enough at 100 yards at anytime in my life to ethically kill a deer with iron sights, I early on made a pledge to myself NOT TO EXCEED 60-75 yards with ANY shot on ANY size game animal. From an ant to an elephant.

Most of my life I have had to "settle" for what Col. Jeff Cooper termed Scout Rifle level accuracy. Which is 2 M.O.A. out to whatever is the limiting factor for the rifle in question. For me the limiting factor has always been my eyes, NOT MY RIFLE'S ability to place shot, after shot into the same small space.

My .45 caliber flint longrifle was capable of killing deer in out to 100 yards with 70 grains of fffg black powder, and a 0.445" diameter ball (132.1 grains/pure lead).

My .50 caliber flint longrifle was capable of killing elk out to 100 yards, easily (no through the shoulder blade shots), with 75 grains of fffg black powder, and a 0.495" diameter ball (181.8 grains/pure lead).

My .62 caliber flint longrifle was capable of killing anything in North America, including the big bears that will kill you right back, out to 100 yards with 75-120 grains of fffg black powder, and a 0.615" diameter ball (348.7 grains/pure lead). My east of the Mississippi River powder charge was 75 grains of fffg black powder, which gave me those magical silver dollar size groups of 5 shots at 100 yards. If I had ever hunted west of the Mississippi River, out in the Rocky Mountains, the Sierras, or the Cascades; I probably would have gone looking for a stouter powder charge between 90-120 grains. Something that would have a chance of dropping a grizzly bear coming to a fresh elk kill in its tracks.

As I look back on 50 years of on again, off awhile, on again, muzzleloading shooting, I can see that my lousy eyesight was in its way a blessing of sorts.

GOD knows, I have all kinds of things I am addicted to, but chasing the elusive "Every Shot Through the Same Hole" combination of propellant, wad, patch, ball, lead conical, sabot, jacketed bullet, copper bullet, brass bullet, lead bullet, sub-base, lubricant, sizing die, bullet mold(s), lead alloy(s), etc. HAS NOT been one of them. Make NO MISTAKE about it, I can EASILY see myself going down that path had I just been able to see better as a youth. Or, been introduced to precision target shooting by someone similarly addicted at an age where shooting with a scope would have made some kind of sense to me.

None of those things happened to me. I stuck with iron sights, and flintlock longrifles. I accepted my limitations, especially the 2 M.O.A hunting accuracy limit for my longrifles. And, as a result, found out that a patched ball was a fine killer of thin-skinned, medium-sized game such as the whitetail deer. Even that 132 grain, 0.445" diameter patched ball in my 40" long Douglas GAA .45 caliber barrel.

It's a common myth that a bullet is MANDATORY in order to kill deer. If the double lung shot is made from any reasonable distance, even with the .45 caliber ball, you are almost certain to have both an entrance, and an exit hole on opposite sides of the deer.

If you want to punch through bones, then a .54, .58, .60, or .62 caliber patched ball rifle will be a better choice. Bigger is better, I say. Unless you go stupid crazy with big powder charges, recoil WILL NOT be anything like what most inline shooters are experiencing/have experienced with BH209 & saboted bullets.

On paper, and in ballistic tables lead balls look TERRIBLE. In the real world, they stack up quite well against bullets. Especially, if you find yourself killing most of your deer at ranges under 100 yards. Even more so if you are killing most of your deer at ranges under 75 yards.
Well said, Docsv2.
Ok, I'll go ahead and admit it, "My name is Bill, and I have a bad case of MOA-itis!"
That being said, I'd be happy to keep my groups under two inches on average, but it's CONSISTENCY that is eluding me. Sure is rewarding, however, when I get that very rare sub-MOA group.
 
A coned muzzle and a radiused crown are two very different things.
True. But, I am so used to using the commonly accepted terminology that has been bandied about for decades now. A true coned muzzle uses a tapered reamer to create a forcing cone into which the patch/ball is pushed by the ramrod. Both my Getz barrels had factory "coned muzzles", which were by really just radiused crowns. They both loaded quite easily, and shot with M.O.A. at 100 yards. I have never owned a true coned muzzle, nor actually held the tool in my hands to create one. I created the radiused crown on my Douglas GAA .45 caliber barrel by using the ball of my thumb, and increasingly finer grits of abrasive paper. I think I read about how to do it in Muzzle Blasts magazine back in the day?
 
I started hunting elk with 400 gr. bullets and 150 gr. of 777. It killed on one end and maimed on the other. I've since loaded down to 115 gr. of powder. My best group was with a cast bullet was with 85 gr. of 777. I've been told that a heavy pure lead bullet even at low speed is a dependable killer of elk. I've yet to try it, but I believe it. I know that pure lead pointed bullets didn't exit an elk at 200 yards when pushed with 150 gr. of powder. Went 1" into his heart. Lower velocity means they won't over expand.
 
They do for me ,especially if you misjudged thickness/material on the patch as a (FELT by the way) look up Durafelt Where I buy (nice people) will cushion the abuse and get a little more horse power along the way. The extra time is worth it when that squirrel you waited on 1/2 the day finally shows and for retired folks we got the time and need the meat :elmer:
Totally agree re Durafelt people....even included a nice note to me regards the purchase and what I planned to use it for. I punch em out and use dry or damp/lubed....tho mostly damp. Lubed with SPB or Beeswax/lanolin. If damp, spit or Birchwood Casey BP solvent
 
sabot loader

I guess it shows my lack of experience with black powder substitutes, in that your above posted experiences NEVER occured to me as possibilities. I will defer to your, and other's experiences with the subs as to what might work, or not, as the case may be.

As far as burning through patches is concerned, the time honored remedy for the problem has always been to move to a thicker patch material, a tighter weave of cotton such as canvas duck, or perhaps even linen, or both.

Thicker patch material will virtually ALWAYS require a very smooth, or radiused crown, otherwise known as a coned muzzle. Anyone who has not experienced loading what they would otherwise consider a ball/patch combination that should be far too tight to get past the muzzle, much less ram down onto the powder charge with EASE, then I say to properly cone/radius the factory, cut angled crown of a barrel intended for shooting patched balls. Then load it with a patch measuring AT LEAST 0.020" thick, and with a ball measuring 0.005" under bore diameter.

Yes, it will take a good rap on a short starter to get the ball started, and past the muzzle. Once it is 6" down the bore, the ball & patch will smoothly slide the balance of the way down onto the powder charge with 6"-8" strokes of the ramrod using NORMAL FORCE.

I only ever had hickory ramrods on my three rifles, and NEVER came close to breaking any of them. A .45, a .50, & a .62 caliber.
Matthew I was going to PM you this but apparently your set up not to accept PMs! Anyway, if you want to increase the radius on the crown of your muzzleloader without coning it here's a simple solution and makes starting a PRB easier without damaging the patch.
Go to your local hardware store and buy an appropriate cap nut (one where the round portion will fit over the muzzle without going in the bore) with the proper bolt and get some 320 grit or finer valve grinding compound. Chuck the bolt/cap nut in a drill, apply some compound to it and work it over the crown. It give you a very nice bevel to the muzzle and aids in centering and starting your PRB.
 

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