Traditions Pursuit G4 Won't Group

[hkj]

About 18 months ago I bought a Traditions Pursuit Ultralight G4 from Walmart for a $130 during an end of season sale. I cannot to get the rifle to shoot decent groups. I have tried two different scopes and now have a Nikon Muzzleloader scope on the rifle. I have tried 777, Pyrodex, and BH209 all with standard and mag primers. I've tried several bullet and charge weights. All rifle, scope rings, and base screws are torqued to spec and have lock-tight. The scope is centered and level. I've tried several cleaning methods etc. During load development and zeroing I allow the rifle to lay into the rest and do not hold onto the barrel or forearm so I avoid influence on barrel harmonics.

The best shot group I've produced at 100 yrds was approximately 3". On average 4.5"-5" is repeatable. I would accept 2" groups for an average but I cannot get this rifle to even come close to that.

Any thoughts on this rifle? Anyone have experience with this rifle brand and model?

 

[edmehlig]

I'm having the exact same problem trying to get my Brother-in-law's Pursuit to shoot as well. This is the worst shooting ML I've ever come across. I may try one more time with it before I had it back to him. He has a Leupold V3 3.5x10 scope mounted on it and at 75yd I'm getting around 4" groups.

 

[GM54-120]

What sabots are you using? The ones that come with the bullets or did you buy them separate? In the case of the Traditions i would suggest trying the Harvester Black Crushrib sabot with your current bullets.

How long are you waiting between shots?

 

[hkj]

In the last 18 months I've spent nearly what I paid for the rifle buying and trying different bullets, sabots, and powders. I have tried Barns which were very tight going down the barrel. I shot some of the Federal Bore Locks, Hornady XTPs, Traditions bullets, Power Belts, and a couple of others all in various weights. All with various powders and charges, primers, and cleaning regiments. I've been reloading ammunition for nearly 30yrs and have never experienced a rifle with such inaccuracy and inconsistency as this one. Hell, years ago when I first tried muzzleloading I had a cheap $90 Knight introductory level rifle that shot better than my Traditions.

It's funny that you mentioned Harvester sabots. Last night before submitting my thread to this forum I ordered some Harvester Crushrib and Harvester XTP sabots. I also ordered some Lehigh .240gr Controlled Fracturing .452 diameter bullets. I'll try the Harvester sabots with the Lehigh and my XTPs bullets. I do not have high hopes. I think my Traditions is a lemon. I've called Traditions several times and tried all of their recommendations.

While I await my bullet and sabot orders what would you all recommend for a long range (200-300) accurate easy to clean muzzleloader within the $300-$475 range? I know I just opened Pandora's Box.

 

[GM54-120]

If it wont shoot a Crushrib and a 250gr XTP then i would really be concerned. That load should be tight in a Traditions bore but not super tight.

In that price range...I would look at the Accura Plains Rifle from CVA. Not as heavy as the the Accura LR and well made at that price point. Otherwise i would go for a Knight in 45cal fast twist but thats not going to be cheap.

 

[fishhawk2700]

When you have a barrel that probably cost under 20 bucks to manufacture ya can't expect much. I'm not a CVA guy but in your price range CVA offers a lot of bang for the buck.

 

[GM54-120]

Just a FYI since you asked and mentioned Knight.

Knight does have Extremes starting at $417.99 plus the crazy $45 shipping. Adding a Lehigh bare primer conversion puts you just slightly over budget.
https://www.muzzleloaders.com/product-category/muzzleloaders/disc-extreme-muzzleloader/

 

[michiganmuzzy]

I cant say enough good things about my CVA Accura 45 LR. But right now I think you can actually get a Knight DISC extreme cheaper. Both are great choices in the price range. The Accura PR is a great handling gun and SO easy the load and clean. Shoots anything you load with great accuracy. I believe we've talked about the guns that Malwart sells being seconds or something like that. Not quite up to the same standard as other guns of the same manufacturer sold elsewhere.

 

[deermanok]

Sorry to hear about your rifle. I owned a Pursuit at one time and it shot beautiful for me with the TC Shockwave 200 grain bullet. 90 grains of BH 209, CCI 209m primers.

 

[sdporter]

X2. Try the shockwaves I shoot a 250 grain out of my factory Savage, that’s the best shooting bullet I have found and I’ve tried several combinations. I shoot the non-bonded version, yellow tip, yellow sabot for about $0.50 a bullet. It fits a little on the looser side, not supposed to shoot real well, but , it shoots sub MOA. A better shooter than me could make it a lot better than that, and I haven’t tried 1/10th grain increments with it yet, just 41-44 in whole grain steps.
Does it have the QLA type muzzle? It might be bored way off center if it does, and contributing to your problems. Just a thought...You might look at that, and consider cutting it off and re-crowning the muzzle.
I feel your frustration, I’ve spent as much in bullets and powder, I bet, trying to get my CVA Accura LR to shoot well, and I have got 1.5” at 100 yards as the best so far with 90 gns V BH209 and a Remington 250 gn bullet/sabot combo. BTW not impressed with the Bore Lok’s out of any rifle I’ve tried them in so far.

Pretty much any rifle out there can be made to harvest deer to 300 and elk to 200 with the right load. I prefer White’s shooting big, heavy, lead conicals.

 

[sdporter]

Side note, I hit a cow elk with that combo at about 175 yards two years ago and got a clean pass. She went 40 yards and lights out. The damage in the chest cavity was pretty impressive.

 

[THBailey]

Let me get this straight: You have a very light weight muzzleloader that shoots coffee saucer groups at 100 yards? And that is a problem?

 

[GM54-120]

Let me get this straight: You have a very light weight muzzleloader that shoots coffee saucer groups at 100 yards? And that is a problem?

Ive seen quite a few more expensive "light weight" rifles shoot just fine. Such as the Accura MR from CVA. At a claimed 6.35lbs its not much heavier than the G4. Optima V2 is about 1lb more (6.65lbs) and retails for about the same amount. Both seem to get far more good reviews on the forums than bad.

 

[sdporter]

Let me get this straight: You have a very light weight muzzleloader that shoots coffee saucer groups at 100 yards? And that is a problem?

Just fine for most shots you are going to take. The gun’s are far more capable than that though, and no sense not trying to wring every ounce of accuracy out of them you can. If nothing else, it builds confidence in you, and your equipment’s ability.

 

[deermanok]

I think alot of guys set too high standards for shooting. I mean unless you're in competition.
I remember back in the days of the old foster style deer slugs. If you could hit a paper plate at 50 yards you were considered a great marksman.

 

[dbowling]

exactly paper plate accuracy used to be the standard.. same for recurves I remember guys used to say if you could keep the arrow in a paper plate at 20 yds you were good to hunt. I like to be a little more accurate then that used to be tennis ball accurate at 20/25 yds.

 

[d.winsor]

In the last 18 months I've spent nearly what I paid for the rifle buying and trying different bullets, sabots, and powders. I have tried Barns which were very tight going down the barrel. I shot some of the Federal Bore Locks, Hornady XTPs, Traditions bullets, Power Belts, and a couple of others all in various weights. All with various powders and charges, primers, and cleaning regiments. I've been reloading ammunition for nearly 30yrs and have never experienced a rifle with such inaccuracy and inconsistency as this one. Hell, years ago when I first tried muzzleloading I had a cheap $90 Knight introductory level rifle that shot better than my Traditions.

It's funny that you mentioned Harvester sabots. Last night before submitting my thread to this forum I ordered some Harvester Crushrib and Harvester XTP sabots. I also ordered some Lehigh .240gr Controlled Fracturing .452 diameter bullets. I'll try the Harvester sabots with the Lehigh and my XTPs bullets. I do not have high hopes. I think my Traditions is a lemon. I've called Traditions several times and tried all of their recommendations.

While I await my bullet and sabot orders what would you all recommend for a long range (200-300) accurate easy to clean muzzleloader within the $300-$475 range? I know I just opened Pandora's Box.

Get your information together and your ducks in a row, call Traditions, I had the same problem with a strikerfire and Triditions replaced it.

 

[sdporter]

I agree with the paper plate accuracy to an extent, depending on where you hunt. Out here, you very seldom get shots under 100 yards. It’s just too open. It’s been burned too many times. It can be a real chore to get within 200 yards depending on the time of year. The later it gets (rifle season) the worse it gets.

 

[hkj]

I called Traditions again, and rehashed previous discussions I had with previous techs. The tech I talked with a couple of days ago said Traditions has a five week turnaround for service on rifles. They'll run a few of their standard loads through the rifle at the range to determine if there's a problem, if no issues then it'll cost me $80 for diagnoses and range fees, plus shipping both directions. I only paid $130, so its a no brainier not to sink any more money into the rifle. The tech also said, " I should expect 1.5"-2" groups at a 100 yrds reliably. I take that with a grain of salt of course. I will except 2"-3" groups consistantly. The rifle is marketed as a 200yrd gun. As it stands now, the rifle might send a projectile 200yrds but it sure in heck won't hit what your aiming at, except the broadside of a barn, maybe.

In response to THBailey's post,
"Let me get this straight: You have a very light weight muzzleloader that shoots coffee saucer groups at 100 yards? And that is a problem?"

Yes, that is an issue, because in my opinion a modern inline muzzleloader should not have issues maintaining a 2"-3" three inch max shot group at 100yrds. When the manufacture states 1.5"-2", I hold them to it. Group small, aim small, miss small, I live by that. A 4.5"-5" group leaves way too much room for error, whether I miss calculate wind, distance or the animal shifts slightly etc.

Questions for all:
1. Does anyone use bore butter to lube the barrel prior to loading of propellant and projectile? I ask because I have tried with butter and a dry barrel with this rifle and neither way seems to make it shoot any better.

2.a. Does anyone use bore butter prior to loading and then leave the rifle sit loaded over night or for extended periods?
b. What were results of doing so?

Finely, I need a some help from the audience, I've decided if after this weekend I cannot get my Traditions to shoot trying some of this group's and the Traditions technician's loading practices and load recipes I'm going to order a Knight. I spoke with Knight a couple of days ago, they have a five week turnaround on orders.

I ruled out the CVA Accura because of the CVA action lever. The lever catches on things often, thus opening the action and losing the primer. I have a few friends that have complained about this.

I've upped my budget limits, I really like the Mountaineer. Knight says if I want to shoot 300yrds plus the Mounatineer in .45cal is the way to go but I may run into some States that require a minimum of .50cal. The second choice is the Disk Extreme in .50cal but Knight recommends shot limits of 230-250yrds or less with .50cal or larger. Here in Virginia I have areas I can shoot out to 300yrds from a supported position.

Questions for all:
1. Does anyone have a Knight disk and what is the most comfortable distance you accurately and repeatably shoot? More than 230yrds?

2. Does anyone know of states that require a minimum .50cal projectile for big game?

 

[ENCORE50A]

I called Traditions again, and rehashed previous discussions I had with previous techs. The tech I talked with a couple of days ago said Traditions has a five week turnaround for service on rifles. They'll run a few of their standard loads through the rifle at the range to determine if there's a problem, if no issues then it'll cost me $80 for diagnoses and range fees, plus shipping both directions. I only paid $130, so its a no brainier not to sink any more money into the rifle. The tech also said, " I should expect 1.5"-2" groups at a 100 yrds reliably. I take that with a grain of salt of course. I will except 2"-3" groups consistantly. The rifle is marketed as a 200yrd gun. As it stands now, the rifle might send a projectile 200yrds but it sure in heck won't hit what your aiming at, except the broadside of a barn, maybe.

In response to THBailey's post,
"Let me get this straight: You have a very light weight muzzleloader that shoots coffee saucer groups at 100 yards? And that is a problem?"

Yes, that is an issue, because in my opinion a modern inline muzzleloader should not have issues maintaining a 2"-3" three inch max shot group at 100yrds. When the manufacture states 1.5"-2", I hold them to it. Group small, aim small, miss small, I live by that. A 4.5"-5" group leaves way too much room for error, whether I miss calculate wind, distance or the animal shifts slightly etc.

Questions for all:
1. Does anyone use bore butter to lube the barrel prior to loading of propellant and projectile? I ask because I have tried with butter and a dry barrel with this rifle and neither way seems to make it shoot any better.

2.a. Does anyone use bore butter prior to loading and then leave the rifle sit loaded over night or for extended periods?
b. What were results of doing so?

Finely, I need a some help from the audience, I've decided if after this weekend I cannot get my Traditions to shoot trying some of this group's and the Traditions technician's loading practices and load recipes I'm going to order a Knight. I spoke with Knight a couple of days ago, they have a five week turnaround on orders.

I ruled out the CVA Accura because of the CVA action lever. The lever catches on things often, thus opening the action and losing the primer. I have a few friends that have complained about this.

I've upped my budget limits, I really like the Mountaineer. Knight says if I want to shoot 300yrds plus the Mounatineer in .45cal is the way to go but I may run into some States that require a minimum of .50cal. The second choice is the Disk Extreme in .50cal but Knight recommends shot limits of 230-250yrds or less with .50cal or larger. Here in Virginia I have areas I can shoot out to 300yrds from a supported position.

Questions for all:
1. Does anyone have a Knight disk and what is the most comfortable distance you accurately and repeatably shoot? More than 230yrds?

2. Does anyone know of states that require a minimum .50cal projectile for big game?

Just one guy's 2¢............
I wouldn't use bore butter on a stick.
With a good 50cal rifle and entire setup, 300yd shots are very capable, accurately. 300yds isn't just for 45cal rifles.
I've never owned a disk rifle.
As far as the states that require at minimum a .50cal bullet (not with sabot and a .451/2" bullet) CO is one and there may be a couple others. Western states mainly.
Unless you plan on hunting those minimal western states that require a full 50cal bullet, I'd consider the 45cal first. The Knight fast twist 45cal or even the Paramount.