The 300 yrd shot

[ronlaughlin]

............................. but there would be more than 10 inches of difference in drift. Just too much to be ethical IMO.

yup

 

[fliowa]

I hunt with a old knight mk 85 that I am confident out to 200 yards. However if I was inclined to pursue a 300 yard muzzleloader I would lean toward the smokeless variety. There are guys shooting the savage that have taken those long shots. I just read about a a custom made muzzleloader from Swing Lock (www.swinglock.net) where guys are claiming long range kills. There are others to pick from as well.

 

[younghunter_86]

OK, just for fun I ran the charts on a 250 gr SST (BC .211) at 1950 fps (about 100 gr of BH209 from MY powder measure in MY omega, YMMV).

Yards Velocity Energy Elevation ETA
0 1950 fps 2111fpe -1.65 in 0 sec
50 1783 1764 1.51 .08
100 1628 1470 1.89 .17
150 1483 1220 -0.95 .265
200 1353 1017 -7.81 .371
250 1240 854 -19.41 .487
300 1148 731 -36.72 .613


You can see the energy is getting marginal, the drop is getting to the point where it is critical to know the exact distance because 5 yards could mean the difference between a hit and a miss, and the time to target is getting large enough to give the animal time to move too much from when you pull the trigger until the bullet hits. Most importantly, wind drift is nearly 27 inches with a 10 mph crosswind at this distance. I can't judge the wind well enough to tell a 5 mph from 10 mph, but there would be more than 10 inches of difference in drift. Just too much to be ethical IMO.

+1, with your current setup I don't think it's a good idea. Targets no problem, but if I was a landowner and knew you were going to be shooting 300 yards with your ML I doubt if you would be hunting here anymore. With smokeless it could be done, but it won't be cheap.

 

[vabowhntr]

Heck, as a landowner I don't want the folks I have hunting on the place shooting more than 100 yards with a muzzleloader. Most of them can barely do that under hunting conditions. I only have 3 stands where a 100+yard shot are possible.

The guys that hunt the farm used to use buckshot and took shots that were too long. We found a couple of their "misses" for them. They both went about 150-200 yards with no blood trail to speak of, but were dead either way. They now use muzzleloaders or slugs, although they just opened our county to rifles, so I wonder what they will bring this year...

 

[Banerbird]

OK, just for fun I ran the charts on a 250 gr SST (BC .211) at 1950 fps (about 100 gr of BH209 from MY powder measure in MY omega, YMMV).

Yards Velocity Energy Elevation ETA
0 1950 fps 2111fpe -1.65 in 0 sec
50 1783 1764 1.51 .08
100 1628 1470 1.89 .17
150 1483 1220 -0.95 .265
200 1353 1017 -7.81 .371
250 1240 854 -19.41 .487
300 1148 731 -36.72 .613


You can see the energy is getting marginal, the drop is getting to the point where it is critical to know the exact distance because 5 yards could mean the difference between a hit and a miss, and the time to target is getting large enough to give the animal time to move too much from when you pull the trigger until the bullet hits. Most importantly, wind drift is nearly 27 inches with a 10 mph crosswind at this distance. I can't judge the wind well enough to tell a 5 mph from 10 mph, but there would be more than 10 inches of difference in drift. Just too much to be ethical IMO.

I might get fome flack for this one, but...

Personally, I'm not comfortable shooting my ML at 300yds, but I wouldn't hesitate at 200yds. IF I got familiar with the trajectory, I would go up to 250yds (DEPENDING on the situation... wind, deer movement, etc...). What I'm trying to understand is why people don't think it's a good idea based on velocity and energy. Look at 44 Mag velocities (Hornady's website with 240gr XTP) and energies at 75-100 yds and they're almost identical to what is shown above at 300 yds. I know that a 44 Mag has no problem dropping a deer at 75-100yds, so why wouldn't a ML be able to at 300yds, again based on velocity and energy.

I do agree, though, because of the amount of drop, time of travel, and possible drift (you don't know what the wind or deer will do in the amount of time it takes the bullet to travel 300yds), it would be better to pass and wait for a better opportunity.

 

[taylorhaught]

Allright, I am determined to find out if this is viable. Not saying I want to take this shot, but to see if it is both doable/ethical.

I ordered a chrony today and will be conducting some tests on bullets/loads that will hopefully give me enough info.

Give me a few months and I will report back

 

[wildhobbybobby]

Shots over about 250 yards with a muzzleloader or over about 400 yards with a centerfire are "doable" but nobody will ever convince me that they are generally ethical in a big game hunting scenario.

We are talking about attempting to take the life of a living, breathing, sentient creature that is capable of great suffering and has a strong will to live. The moral imperative of the hunter is to be SURE that there will be a clean kill. This means that you must be confident of your ability to put the bullet in the vital area of the animal in question, regardless of the range.

You might have a rock steady shooting position, a laser rangefinder and a ballistic calculator in your shirt pocket, but trajectory is the least of our problems at extended ranges. Wind drift becomes the issue, and no rifleman under field conditions can possibly calculate and compensate for it precisely enough, consistently enough, to make a clean kill every time at the ranges being discussed.

A high powered muzzleloader bullet becomes a medium powered pistol bullet at longer ranges, so just as the need for surgical placement of the bullet becomes greatest, the ability to do it degrades dramatically.

I am sorry if I sound too "preachy", but I love the creatures I hunt and don't want to cause them undue suffering. We make enough mistakes at normal ranges for me to ever endorse an effort to stretch things beyond the true humane capability of our tools.

But target shooting at long range is lots of fun!

 

[papines]

30 yard

The shot is doable. I am worried on the knock down at 300. I have access to a 300 yarder and I am wondering what weights we should be throwing out there? I shoot 10mm/200 grain bullet but i think that is light. Is it better to throw weight out that far? I don't chrony but I could probably do the newspaper target.

 

[taylorhaught]

Wildhobby,

I don't think you are sounding "preachy". I respect your opinion. However, It seems to be most of the people replying to this post tend to live in the midwest and eastern part of the country where 50-100 yrd shots are the norm. I have lived in AZ and NM my whole life and it is routine to have animals that far + with no way to close the gap. We have wide open spaces out here, not dense forests where you cant see beyond 100 yrds. I think this may be clouding some of the responses I am getting.

Again, I appreciate your thoughts on this. At this point I dont want to hear whether or not it is ethical, that is my choice and my decision to make in the field. Perhaps I should rephrase the question... do/have any of you practice shooting out to 300 yrds?

 

[Batchief909]

I agree with Wildhobby. While there are a FEW muzzleloaders that are capable of hitting and killing a deer at 300 yards,,there are more suitable firearms for this purpose, and ethics DOES play a part in this equasion if you're shooting at a game animal. You just need to decide where to draw the line. :wink:

 

[taylorhaught]

Lets be honest, ethics are based on own individual beleifs. What you think is unethical may not be considered by someone else. I do think that is a great conversation to have and I am sure we would get some great responses and opinions, but not what I am looking for with this post.

I will assume most if not all, ever try practicing this far of a shot. Thats what i was looking for

 

[wildhobbybobby]

And I appreciate the fact that you are being thoughtful on the matter. In the end, it is the individual hunter's conscience that determines the answer to this question.

I have done quite a bit of long range varmint hunting in several western states and have killed deer at over 300 yards, so I am certainly not opposed to long range shooting, but my decision-making process comes down to this question, "am I sure that I am going to make a clean kill on this particular animal that appears in my crosshairs?" The percentages have to be awfully close to 100% for me to squeeze the trigger.

And range is only one factor in the decision making process, because you face the same dilemma when the animal is moving, at a bad angle, alerted to your presence and about to bolt, or obscured by brush.

Aldo Leupold said that hunting is a true test of character because there is no audience to applaud or condemn the hunter. So each hunter is free to make these decisions and another person's criteria for an acceptable shot may legitimately differ from mine.

I have killed probably 70 big game animals of various species and so far I have lost 2 deer that I have hit and failed to find. They still bother me and I am a pretty conservative shooter because of that fact.

Thanks for your understanding of my position.

 

[Batchief909]

And I agree 110%.... 8) :wink:

 

[txhunter58]

I do think that is a great conversation to have and I am sure we would get some great responses and opinions, but not what I am looking for with this post.

Sorry it is not what you are looking for, but unfortunately, you can't have one conversation without the other IMO. Thre are a lot of newbys and young guys just starting out in muzzleloading reading thread like this who could come away with the impression that taking 300 yard shots is generally accetable. Well it is not. There is probably only 1 in 100 guys that could ethically take a shot that long (again IMO). So I don't want some young guys reading this and thinking they can go out and do it too.

And I am sorry it is not the conversation you want to have, but when you bring up some points, they beg to have a comeback. Like, "I live out west where there is not a tree for hundreds of yards." Does that mean that no one bowhunts in the area? Sounds like they couldn't from your description.

Not trying to be a hard###, but there is a line to be drawn that is too far for a muzzleloader. For most of us, 300 yards crosses that line. After all, if someone was on here talking up 500 yard shots, would you be on board?

For me, muzzleloading is about going back in time, as is bowhunting. And it is a cliche, but if I want to shoot a deer at 300 yards, there are PLENTY of rifle seasons to do it in. You just want to have the better odds of a primative season with the benefits of long range. Again, IMO, those two don't go together. So yeah, I am going to give that as my opinion on an open forum when your question is asked.

Good hunting!

 

[vabowhntr]

I do firmly believe it is very doable from the bench with little or no wind, maybe everytime. Factor in hunting scenarios, marginal rest, with elevated heart rate and breathing and wind and I believe it is a 30% shot at best.

I would try test this theory under hunting conditions (shooting sticks or prone with backpack rest) in varying wind conditions and see what you can do. I will be very interested to see the results.

I really can't stress the importance of wind drift with muzzleloaders. The drift at 300 yards is measured in feet with anything over a 5 mph crosswind. A couple of MPH each way mean the difference between a kill, a miss, or a gut shot animal. These low BC bullets don't shoot like a fast, high BC rifle bullet.

 

[Batchief909]

Absolutely. 8) When you're talking 300 yard shots with a muzzleloader,,,,ethics is the first word that comes to my mind. Is it possible?? Maybe,,and that's a strong maybe. Is it ethical?? Nope. Not for me.

8)

 

[hjbuys]

While everyone has focused on the ethics of the shot, so far it seems that everyone's decision on 300 yards being too far is not based on any actual evidence of whether or not accuracy and knock down of the bullet at that range is unreasonable. It's not that long ago that we would have heard the same concerns about a 200 or even a 150 yard shot. However, I know that I can keep a shot well within an acceptable group at 200 yards with my ML, even when it is windy because I have done it time and time again. I also feel confident that I will get good penetration at that distance with my current loads and projectiles. Whether or not one can be accurate and consistent at longer yardage can only be determined by the individual shooter and his experience actually shooting at those distances. I agree with Taylorhaught that distances that one must be able to shoot at differ widely throughout geographic areas. I grew up in Utah where 400-500 yard shots were not at all uncommon and, by my fathers hands, had great success. I also lived in Iowa where it was virtually impossible to have a shot over 60 yards where I hunted. In NM where I currently reside, you have to be ready for close up or long distances. So, in order to truly make an informed ethical decision on when to take the shot, you really need to understand the limits of your weapon. As far as muzzleloaders go, whether or not the bullet retains enough momentum at that distance to penetrate a big game animal well is still part of the argument that no one has addressed and has remained unanswered. In order for anyone to comment on the ethics of taking a shot at that distance, they must first have knowledge of actual bullet performence at that distance. If anyone has that information for different projectiles and load combinations, I would love to see it.

 

[taylorhaught]

Great post. I wish I could elaborate what I was trying to say as well as you did.

Time to get to the range

 

[Panhandle]

I've been following this post since it was started and have noticed that several good points have been made on both sides of the discussion. I hesitated to respond being that both deer I shot last year were taken with a Savage smokeless shooting a 300gn Barnes Original at 2400fps. Where I hunt 200yd shots are the norm; wide open sand hills and wheat fields. Often times I first see the deer at a mile then attempt to get close enough for an ethical shot. The doe in the photo was taken at 243yds and the buck was taken at 308 yds. Both were lasered with a Bushnell 1500 range finder. I considered these two deer to be taken in an ethical manner. The reason is that I had shot hundreds of rounds off a bench and with a bi-pod at both 200yds and at 300yds. My range is set up in the corner of a hay field so it's easy to shoot at long distances. I knew before I stepped into the field just exactly what my rifle was capable of doing and under what conditions. This rifle under ideal conditions is capable of shooting 2" groups consistently at 200yds and has shot 4-5" at 300yd. Sighted in to zero at 200yds it shoots 6-7" low at 250 and 16" low at 300. I held accordingly on both deer with a steady rest, no wind, and both traveled less than 10yds. The Barnes Original is a deadly longe range bullet shooting through the front shoulders of both deer. I'am perfectly confident to shoot at these ranges with a steady rest and ideal conditions.

On the other hand different rifles have different limitations. My Triumph is a very accurate rifle out to 200yds. With 110gns Blackhorn and the same bullet it will consistently shoot 3" at 200yds. Last week it put six shots within 3" at 200yds. I've made 200 yds the absolute maximum range for that rifle. After that it the drop is too severe to be confident in making an ethical shot. Sighted in to zero at 175yd it hits 29' low at 300 and it's hard to keep them in a 12" circle. I've found the 300 gn bullets to shoot flatter than the 250 gns. The ballistic tables will tell you that 300gn bullets retain more energy than 250 gn bullets also. The last thing any hunter ever wants to do is wound an animal and it get away. Each shot must be decided according to conditions and the effective limits put on each individual rifle. These are my thoughts....To each his own.
Zen

 

[hjbuys]

Now there's a good post. Something for the rest of us to build on. Were you shooting the same projectile in your Triumph as your Savage? Thanks again for the information. I wish I had a place I could get out past 200 yards as well.