Response from Doug Phair @ Western Powders

[frontier gander]

frontier gander

The real problem you have stead-fastly said there is not a problem over and over even to peole that were pleading for help.

Some of those people do not understand your lack of credibilty like others that have subject to your rhetoric for so long.

and even them often you fail to mention.. "Oh ya... i have modified mine"

It is about time Western publically said what they have been saying privately for along time now. It was not a secret, just some people can not handle the truth.

Nope you again are just attacking me like youve done since i was 20 years old and first showed up on the forums.

If people are having hang fires issues i always tell them to either use cci 209m primers OR use a #65 drill bit. YOU again go on your attack spree ' may as well get your shots in while you can' about ooooh dont use the .035 flash hole, it just erodes faster and then your plug is no good.

 

[JStanley]

sabotloader

This not quite totaly true. I have modified and have BP built with the vent liner on the end of the plug (reduces blow- back pressures on the nose of the primer). They do not have the powder pocket that you speak of. I shoot BH with them very well even using the coolest primers i can find.

The real key and there are two of them is the size of the 'flash channel' and the design of the 'flash hole'.

You are correct sir Your bp mods/designs show that there is more than one way to skin a cat. The enlarged flash channel, tight seal at the primer, and vent liner all work together to deliver a more efficient, powerful, well contained energy package to the powder. Even a flat or convex faced bp when coupled with a tight fitting bullet/sabot combo yields the confined space mentioned earlier. I wonder if the concave powder pocket combined with your mods would push the operational envelope farther into the cold temperature range? Do you think the concave shape might help focus the initial combustion energy sort of like the way the concave mirror helps focus the light in a flashlight? It definitely works with demolition shaped charges. Thanks for the wisdom & pics/drawings.

 

[marshall9779]

It stinks that the new model Optima's are shooting BH reliably. I have an Optima Elite and have not had any problem with BH using the factory BP. I do use the longer WIN 209 primers to make sure it seals up good.

 

[Urban_Redneck]

Ok guys got an email back.

Jonathan:

We are working on this now, with the help of Blackhorn. We have to test several different designs.


Thanks for the info.

Best regards,
Dudley McGarity

There you have it, CVA listened and realized their plug needed modification to be 100% with BH209. They missed the first boat, but, will be on the next.

Know this, BH209 is shifting the inline ignition paradigm. When paradigms shift, everyone doesn't come over all at once. That's just the way it is.

Read The Structure of Scientific Revolutions by T.S. Kuhn. That book, and discovering girls will enable you to put all this in perspective.

Jim

 

[ronlaughlin]

...... plugs work so well because of the powder pocket first and foremost. The confined space created by the powder pocket is the key to getting a progressive powder like BH209 to ignite. I have an Omega and it's flash hole is only .029". Much smaller than the magical .035". It has never failed to go BOOM with BH. Also, my older Buckhunter Pro from Traditions works well with BH because it has a deep powder pocket that is 40% (approx.) smaller in diameter than the barrel, just like Omegas. Since the volume of a cylinder varies with the square of the radius, this smaller diameter makes a much smaller volume of powder the recipient of the flame. Add to this the flash hole acts like the nozzle of a pressure washer, dramatically increasing the energy of the flame impacting the powder in the pocket. Once the powder confined to the pocket is burning well, the rest of the charge is good to go. Good seating pressure is necessary to complete the confined space characteristics also. Just to show you how unimportant the primer side of the flash hole is compared to the powder pocket, my Buckhunter has one of those nipples with the round spring to hold the primer in place. It's not very vapor tight but that powder pocket in the bp gives the confined space needed for ignition despite the sloppiness of the primer fit.............
Be blessed.

Well written indeed. This is how i have come to view this issue.

Another way i have viewed it, right or wrong, is, the 'powder pocket' is acting like the small amount of hotter powder in a duplex load.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

JStanley

Ron's plugs work so well because of the powder pocket first and foremost. The confined space created by the powder pocket is the key to getting a progressive powder like BH209 to ignite.

This not quite totaly true. I have modified and have BP built with the vent liner on the end of the plug (reduces blow- back pressures on the nose of the primer). They do not have the powder pocket that you speak of. I shoot BH with them very well even using the coolest primers i can find.

The real key and there are two of them is the size of the 'flash channel' and the design of the 'flash hole'.

This a drawing of the design for a Knight plug.

This is the conversion of a Knight plug...

This is a picture of converted CVA plugs

The installation of the vent liner on the end of the plug worls equally for ignition of BH, the vent liner on the end reduces the blow-back pressure felt at the nose of the prime by increasing the volume of the 'flash channel' allowing more more blow back to be contained there.

This here was very helpful. I would venture to say that this should be the same process for the QRBP. where doe you get the vent liners, and what is the squishy blue stuff?

 

[sabotloader]

The Mad Hatter

The Vent Liners come from: www.Lehighbullets.com

I think they are about $4 maybe $5 a piece. They are made from a great grade of steel and hardened. I have yet to wear one out. In fact I have not heard of anyone that has worn one out.

The blue stuff is breech plug grease that I use to prevent the liner from seizing... I also shoot a lot of T7

 

[The Mad Hatter]

The Mad Hatter

The Vent Liners come from: www.Lehighbullets.com

I think they are about $4 maybe $5 a piece. They are made from a great grade of steel and hardened. I have yet to wear one out. In fact I have not heard of anyone that has worn one out.

The blue stuff is breech plug grease that I use to prevent the liner from seizing... I also shoot a lot of T7

Thanks for the link. I appreciate it. I am going to order two of em.

 

[Busta]

Ron's plugs work so well because of the powder pocket first and foremost. The confined space created by the powder pocket is the key to getting a progressive powder like BH209 to ignite. I have an Omega and it's flash hole is only .029". Much smaller than the magical .035". It has never failed to go BOOM with BH. Also, my older Buckhunter Pro from Traditions works well with BH because it has a deep powder pocket that is 40% (approx.) smaller in diameter than the barrel, just like Omegas. Since the volume of a cylinder varies with the square of the radius, this smaller diameter makes a much smaller volume of powder the recipient of the flame. Add to this the flash hole acts like the nozzle of a pressure washer, dramatically increasing the energy of the flame impacting the powder in the pocket. Once the powder confined to the pocket is burning well, the rest of the charge is good to go. Good seating pressure is necessary to complete the confined space characteristics also. Just to show you how unimportant the primer side of the flash hole is compared to the powder pocket, my Buckhunter has one of those nipples with the round spring to hold the primer in place. It's not very vapor tight but that powder pocket in the bp gives the confined space needed for ignition despite the sloppiness of the primer fit.

If you don't have a bp with a powder pocket you need to be calling Ron - his plugs are the bomb. :lol:

Be blessed.

I am going to have to disagree with some of your statement, especially about the primer side of the breech plug not being important. You don't NEED a powder pocket, but it doesn't hurt ignition, that is for sure. You do need a good primer pocket and a flame channel that will handle the volume of your heat and pressure, OR you need a direct dump into the powder column. I have tested and helped develop Blackhorn friendly breech plugs for over 2-1/2 years, since early April 2008.

I have several custom breech plugs, and several modified OEM breech plugs. Some with vent liners and some without.

These plugs are 100% reliable with Blackhorn 209 in all weather conditions. The primer pocket and flame channel are so precise, there is absolutely no blowback, either around or through the primer. I have tested these with several primers and get great ignition. I do use a Federal 209A or CCI 209M for hunting though, just as an insurance policy.

This one has a bit of a powder pocket, but I don't think it does any better than the above ones do.

The best breech plug for igniting Blackhorn 209 "Bar None", is the Metrics Unlimited. This is "Outside the Box" engineering, there is nothing out there like it. I was privileged to be included in some of it's development. This uses a direct dump from the primer into the powder column. It uses a o-ring in the bottom of the primer pocket, no flame channel, but rather a larger diameter flash hole. You can utilize ANY 209 primer you wish, and it will ignite BH209 100% of the time.

 

[Rangeball]

Busta, does metrics make a plug for the CVA accura?

 

[JStanley]

Busta

JStanley wrote to sabotloader

You are correct sir Your bp mods/designs show that there is more than one way to skin a cat. The enlarged flash channel, tight seal at the primer, and vent liner all work together to deliver a more efficient, powerful, well contained energy package to the powder. Even a flat or convex faced bp when coupled with a tight fitting bullet/sabot combo yields the confined space mentioned earlier. I wonder if the concave powder pocket combined with your mods would push the operational envelope farther into the cold temperature range? Do you think the concave shape might help focus the initial combustion energy sort of like the way the concave mirror helps focus the light in a flashlight? It definitely works with demolition shaped charges. Thanks for the wisdom & pics/drawings.

Looking back at my original post, I probably shouldn't have used the words "first and foremost". Your response and sabotloader's captures the essence of ingenuity and innovation that has made me come to love hanging out here. That Metrics Unlimited bp seems the closest I've seen so far at approximating the conditions in a modern cartridge - that being the primer sitting right up against the powder charge (shortest flash channel of all).

Thanks guys & blessings to all.

 

[Busta]

Busta, does metrics make a plug for the CVA accura?

No, they are for the H&R/NEF Huntsmans and Sidekicks. Both in 5/8" and 7/8".

The thread is the same on the 5/8" breech plug, so a guy with a lathe and a little time could modify one to work. Just a matter of figuring out the headspace, and a little turning.

Less primer may actually be best in this plug. Nick uses 777 primers to light his blackhorn, and in testing I have done it with 11 different primers including the reduced ML primers and the 209-4 (410 primer).

 

[mrlnfshr1]

Is this problem with the Optima and BH209 a problem with the new Optimas? Shot a couple or 3 tubs of BH through my 2007 Optima with no ignition problems that werent operator error ( ie. overzealous swabbing, too many shots without cleaning plug)

 

[Underclocked]

I'll just state once again that I have never had a problem firing BH209 in two original Accura rifles (not V2) nor in my Apex with the original QRBP design.

No product bias involved, just the simple truth.

 

[Rangeball]

I'll just state once again that I have never had a problem firing BH209 in two original Accura rifles (not V2) nor in my Apex with the original QRBP design.

No product bias involved, just the simple truth.

What's the coldest temps you got good ignition in and which primer?

 

[Underclocked]

Can't say that I've done much (if any) testing in sub-freezing temps. If it's too cold, I stay home. And that could be a big difference, I'm sure.

 

[sabotloader]

Rangeball

What I have found in my experiance in cold weather hunting, and here in northern Idah hunting in sub-zero weather is not uncommon, BH is no more temp sensetive than any of the other powders. The real problem is the metal that the heat has to pass through to get to the powder.

Since BH requires such a higher ignition temperature than any other sub - it seems mre sensetive to cold but actually it is the heat generated from the ignition of the primer is robbed on its way to the powder. Part of this problem exists because of breech plug design. Most in fact all except the the newer Lehigh conversion and the Savage Smokeless plugs have a very narrow flash channel - the channel right under the primer and leading to the flash hole. Because of this the 209 primer can not efficiently get the heat and pressure to the flash hole and a lot of the heat is lost in transit. If the the channel were opened to greater diameter the heat and pressuer from the primer could move down the channel much more efficiently. Savage found this out many years ago as they tried to ignite smokeless powder....

I just wrote this simple two-bit analogy in another thread see if this helps explain what I think I am talking about...

One thing that would really help is if you were to modify the CVA breech plug. The standard CVA plug comes with a 3mm flash channel ( the channel right under the nose if the primer leading the the small flash hole in the end of the plug) This small of a tube does not allow the primer gras to move effeciently before starting to loose heat.

Think if it this way... go find two straws a fairly skinny straw and a larger one like for milk shakes.... Fill you mouth and cheeks with water... place the straw in your mouth and bow the water out of the straws.... Which straw more effeciently empties the water in your mouth? Now imagine instead of water you were blowing heat and pressure - which opening would get more heat and pressure to the flash hole.... Next step what if you opened the flash hole a couple of thousands - ????? See what I am working to.

 

[Rangeball]

Sabotloader, makes perfect sense. We'll be testing Ron's plug soon and if that solves the problem, will have the CVA plug modded.

Thanks.

 

[sabotloader]

Rangeball

As I understand it, Ron does not modify the flash channel but he does move the powder closer to the primer which will certainly help and fits inside my premise, but it can also increase the blow back pressure on the nose of the primer. But if the head space is correct it should not matter unless it bulges the primer in the pocket. The other thing he does that i can not do he works to get you head space tighter. I just do not have enough information to do so...

These are a couple of CVA plugs that i added both modifications, but again no attempt at the head speace issue..

 

[Anonymous]

Ron modified a CVA plug for me that looks just like the first one in your picture. The flash channel was opened but I do not know what the exact size it was opened to.