Response from Doug Phair @ Western Powders

[Hunter8282]

regarding my CVA Optima and Blackhorn 209. I have not been able to get reliable ignition. I have also emailed CVA to voice my displeasure. I am curious to see what they have to say.

"Thank you Daryl, we are extremely disappointed with CVA and the QRBP. The design is not reliable with Blackhorn. Seems that some people have good luck, but we are receiving a large number of calls with your same problem. It is ridiculous that a consumer would have to search for a solution to make a brand new gun fire! CVA says they are going to look at this, but don?t know when or if they will have something available. They don?t want people modifying their guns and they seem to hate to admit they ran the car in the ditch.

I would appreciate if you would email or call CVA and tell them your disappointment. We understand they are just telling people to use White Hots. Hodgdon is aligned with CVA now, so that makes sense, but there are many like you that want Blackhorn?.period. We have talked to a large number of people in recent weeks that want to use Blackhorn and are buying guns other than CVA because of the talk going around the Internet. I don?t think CVA?s bloggers will be able to stay ahead of this and it is going to cost them sales. Would also appreciate if you would post your disappointment on any blog sites you might visit.

Our guys in the lab are pretty high on the T/C Omega with the regular breech plug, not the quick release."

 

[johnpb]

Good luck with a response from CVA by email. I sent them 3 different emails about a problem I've got with my Accura and I haven't heard a word. That was 4 months ago with 1 email each month, just to make sure they had time to read it. (I don't have long distance on my home phone or I'd call them.)

 

[Anonymous]

I like it that he tells the truth and does not beat around the bush! CVA when I called them about a problem with my Encore Bergara barrel told me that mag primers was causing the problem and they recommend muzzleloading primers. I explained to him I was shooting Blackhorn 209 and he just continued to say muzzleloading primers only is what we recommend. I recently have purchased a .45 and .50 Omega. Those 2 guns have never misfired or hangfired. I do not clean my flash channel after each shot because I am not carrying a bit to the field with me. I clean the flash channel when I am done. I will definitely be sticking with TC for future purchases.

 

[cayuga]

I have to admit, I too was surprised when I started reading the post about the CVA rifles not shooting BlackHorn 209. This would seem a bad judgment call on BPI's part. Even if they are affiliated with Hodgdons. This new powder has been really catching on in the muzzle-loading world. You would think the companies would play to that effect.

Does anyone know if Traditions has similar ignition problems? How about Thompson Center and Knight? Are all the new rifles out, needing to be adjusted to make them shoot BlackHorn 209 well?

 

[ronlaughlin]

The Omega is perfect. The Triumph is perfect for me so far.

The CVA require a redesigned breech plug--then they are perfect so far. Isn't it amazing that the QRBP has the same face design as the other CVA plug. One would think they would have made a powder pocket there, so it would work with BH209. It is so very simple to make a CVA plug work excellently.

 

[gobbler getter]

i bought a cva apex 3 weeks ago and have shot about 30 rounds out of it.when i first shot it i was useing w209 primers and would get hang fires.i switched to cci 209m primers and never had another problem.i did not clean bp or swab barrel until i was done shooting.my apex loves blackhorn powder (100 gr.) and 300 grain T/C shockwave boolets

 

[Moose1]

CVA and other company

Did you ever ask yourself why ML use ml Primer,ML Powder and ML design?
They are not made for smokeless or semi smokeless powder.Owners of those rifle has to modifie breechplug to use BH209, but with problems innerant to modification.Take all ML company, they shoot Triple 7 or regular Pyrodex or similar with no problems.
Your ML riflr perform flawless with what it was intended to shoot through their barrel.
Don't change what is not broken.They are made for regular blackpowders and substitutes,not for smokeless powder.And requie to pass a swab in the barrel after each shot .That is the way they are made.
Just my opinion.
Moose1

 

[SJAdventures]

There has never been a gr of any other powder besides BH down the barrel of my Pro Hunter and there never will be. If my TC would not have shot it I would have modified it so that it would or got rid of it and bought something else

 

[frontier gander]

i must have magic hands or something, all the CVA's i own shoot it perfectly. Apex, Accura, Accura v2, Optima, 2 Wolfs.

 

[Busta]

i must have magic hands or something, all the CVA's i own shoot it perfectly. Apex, Accura, Accura v2, Optima, 2 Wolfs.

I think you had to modify some by drilling out the flash hole to 0.035", no?

Not all breech plugs are created equal, but most can be modified to be equal. By drilling out the center of the plug to 0.159", and tapping it to receive a 0.032" vent liner, it will go bang every time in all temperatures you can tollerate. I have been doing it for a couple years now in several (6) of my rifles.

Once this modification is made to the breech plug with the correct dimensions, IT DOESN'T CARE WHAT NAME IS ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE BARREL, IT IS NOW EQUAL AS FAR AS IGNITION GOES!

It is just too bad that some of the manufacturers don't understand this, or worse yet, maybe they DO? I'll let you figure that one out.

 

[frontier gander]

yep most of them use a .035" flash hole which is recommended by western powders.

I havent seen anyone taking up the fact that most rifles on the market these days were designed while BH209 was basically brand new and shiny. A lot of people are just now trying the stuff out.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

i must have magic hands or something, all the CVA's i own shoot it perfectly. Apex, Accura, Accura v2, Optima, 2 Wolfs.

I think you had to modify some by drilling out the flash hole to 0.035", no?

Not all breech plugs are created equal, but most can be modified to be equal. By drilling out the center of the plug to 0.159", and tapping it to receive a 0.032" vent liner, it will go bang every time in all temperatures you can tollerate. I have been doing it for a couple years now in several (6) of my rifles.

Once this modification is made to the breech plug with the correct dimensions, IT DOESN'T CARE WHAT NAME IS ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE BARREL, IT IS NOW EQUAL AS FAR AS IGNITION GOES!

It is just too bad that some of the manufacturers don't understand this, or worse yet, maybe they DO? I'll let you figure that one out.

From what it sounds like you have a 50 50 chance to be able to ignite the BH in the new QRBP? when drilling the new .035 hole you are drilling completely throughout correct? Also, what is a vent liner?

 

[GM54-120]

cayuga

According to Toby B. the Traditions Vortek line are supposed to be BH209 friendly.......but........They do sponsor his website so.....

Ive not heard or seen any data either way besides from him.

 

[ronlaughlin]

From what it sounds like you have a 50 50 chance to be able to ignite the BH in the new QRBP? when drilling the new .035 hole you are drilling completely throughout correct? Also, what is a vent liner?

The QRBP has a flash hole that is 0.030" in diameter, and it is about 3/16" long. What you do with the 0.035" drill is make the flash hole 0.035". This is a gunny sack solution toward making a poorly designed breech plug work with BH209.


Vent liners.

The best way to make the QRBP work with black horn, is to install one of them vent liner, by drilling out the powder end of the plug so it has a 'powder pocket'. This will destroy the flash hole. Then drill out flash channel with a #21 drill, and tap enough of the new flash channel, to receive the vent liner, with a 10-32 tap.

Install the vent liner, which makes a flash hole. Install the QRBP in your rifle. Load black horn into your rifle with bullet, and then primer; pull the trigger. Then repeat over and over and over again until you have had enough fun. You will experience no hang fire, nor misfire.

 

[JStanley]

Ron's plugs work so well because of the powder pocket first and foremost. The confined space created by the powder pocket is the key to getting a progressive powder like BH209 to ignite. I have an Omega and it's flash hole is only .029". Much smaller than the magical .035". It has never failed to go BOOM with BH. Also, my older Buckhunter Pro from Traditions works well with BH because it has a deep powder pocket that is 40% (approx.) smaller in diameter than the barrel, just like Omegas. Since the volume of a cylinder varies with the square of the radius, this smaller diameter makes a much smaller volume of powder the recipient of the flame. Add to this the flash hole acts like the nozzle of a pressure washer, dramatically increasing the energy of the flame impacting the powder in the pocket. Once the powder confined to the pocket is burning well, the rest of the charge is good to go. Good seating pressure is necessary to complete the confined space characteristics also. Just to show you how unimportant the primer side of the flash hole is compared to the powder pocket, my Buckhunter has one of those nipples with the round spring to hold the primer in place. It's not very vapor tight but that powder pocket in the bp gives the confined space needed for ignition despite the sloppiness of the primer fit.

If you don't have a bp with a powder pocket you need to be calling Ron - his plugs are the bomb. :lol:

Be blessed.

 

[Urban_Redneck]

i must have magic hands or something, all the CVA's i own shoot it perfectly. Apex, Accura, Accura v2, Optima, 2 Wolfs.

Your anecdotal results with modified breech plugs does not establish a universal truth. You are projecting, again.

 

[frontier gander]

i must have magic hands or something, all the CVA's i own shoot it perfectly. Apex, Accura, Accura v2, Optima, 2 Wolfs.

Your anecdotal results with modified breech plugs does not establish a universal truth. You are projecting, again.

I got one wolf thats non modded and it works perfectly, the rest use .035 flash holes that western powders recommends.

 

[frontier gander]

Ok guys got an email back.

Jonathan:

We are working on this now, with the help of Blackhorn. We have to test several different designs.


Thanks for the info.

Best regards,
Dudley McGarity

 

[sabotloader]

JStanley

Ron's plugs work so well because of the powder pocket first and foremost. The confined space created by the powder pocket is the key to getting a progressive powder like BH209 to ignite.

This not quite totaly true. I have modified and have BP built with the vent liner on the end of the plug (reduces blow- back pressures on the nose of the primer). They do not have the powder pocket that you speak of. I shoot BH with them very well even using the coolest primers i can find.

The real key and there are two of them is the size of the 'flash channel' and the design of the 'flash hole'.

This a drawing of the design for a Knight plug.

This is the conversion of a Knight plug...

This is a picture of converted CVA plugs

The installation of the vent liner on the end of the plug worls equally for ignition of BH, the vent liner on the end reduces the blow-back pressure felt at the nose of the prime by increasing the volume of the 'flash channel' allowing more more blow back to be contained there.

 

[sabotloader]

frontier gander

The real problem you have stead-fastly said there is not a problem over and over even to peole that were pleading for help.

Some of those people do not understand your lack of credibilty like others that have subject to your rhetoric for so long.

and even them often you fail to mention.. "Oh ya... i have modified mine"

It is about time Western publically said what they have been saying privately for along time now. It was not a secret, just some people can not handle the truth.