Patriot 45 1-24 Twist and Standard Breechplug Powders

[Fishbc]

I posted on here that I have ordered a Woodman Patriot (got a long wait still). It is the standard 1-24 twist and the standard non-adjustable breechplug (for now). To start I plan on using the 40 cal Fury 225 and 250 gr. star tipped in the Blue Harvester Crush Rib Sabot.

On Woodmans website it lists 3 appropriate powders and the suggested weights of said powders for the Patriot I ordered ( see below). In Woodmans load data it says my Patriot is not limited to theses powders.

I have IMR 4198 (cannot find H4198), & Reloader 7 & N120. I also have N110, Accurate LT-32 & Accurate 2015 that I have seen mentioned other smokeless muzzleloaders, although some of those powders were used in 50 cal Savage 10 ML II's so maybe not suitable for 45 cal?.

I also have about 30+ other different smokeless powders as I have reloaded for over 40 years.

I have seen some posts that mentioned other suitable powders for the Patriot, but often there were for full bore bullets or with the adjustable breechplug. None I saw were for my particular Patriot.

So my question is how do you determine other suitable powders, and the starting and max grains for those based on the standard brechplug and the Fury 225 & 250 saboted 40 cal bullets ?

Below is the load data from Woodmans website for the Patriot I ordered.

Always weigh smokeless powder, do not measure by volume.
While not limited to these 3 listed powders, these are recommended and tested to be safe. Do not use other smokeless powders without knowing if it is safe.
Hodgdon H4198
Alliant RL7
Vihtavuori N120

Using saboted bullets:
275 grain and under saboted bullets, 56 to 58 grains by weight of the 3 listed powders is recommended.
The standard breech plug is acceptable to use with these saboted loads.
Do not exceed a charge of 65 grains by weight. It is not necessary and can degrade accuracy. Harvester sabots are recommended.

 

[MrTom]

For the bullet weights you plan to begin with I think the 3 powders listed by Woodman are great starters, but substituting IMR 4198 for the H4198 and not exceeding 56 grains with the 225 grain bullet. I shoot a 225 grain in a blue sabot at 56 grains or IMR4198 and the sabots are not deformed in the least. I have shot 56.5, and 57 grains with the 225 grain without sabot deforming in any way but the recoil starts to get your attention pretty good.

If you settled on bullets lighter than the 225 you could throw the N110 in the mix. As I understand it the N110 is a very nice, clean, mild powder.

Congrats on your future shooter! Mine is a 24" McGowan 1:16 and scoped is a hair under 7-1/2 pounds. Just right for the old bone to haul up a mountain of a hill. Its a deadly accurate rifle. I love mine and sure you'll find favor in yours when it arrives.

 

[Mnt monkey]

You have good bullets and good powders and good information with the 225 I would start at maybe 55 grains and slowly work up to 57 as Mr Tom mentioned with a rifle that light even 56 and 57 can be a handful on the bench I do like Fury's 250 40 cal in the light blue and I would probably try his 240 grain 401 also. I think 56.5 because of the constraints of the lightweight is going to be your load and I'm talking about imr-4198 or h look forward to your results!

 

[Fishbc]

For the bullet weights you plan to begin with I think the 3 powders listed by Woodman are great starters, but substituting IMR 4198 for the H4198 and not exceeding 56 grains with the 225 grain bullet. I shoot a 225 grain in a blue sabot at 56 grains or IMR4198 and the sabots are not deformed in the least. I have shot 56.5, and 57 grains with the 225 grain without sabot deforming in any way but the recoil starts to get your attention pretty good.

If you settled on bullets lighter than the 225 you could throw the N110 in the mix. As I understand it the N110 is a very nice, clean, mild powder.

Congrats on your future shooter! Mine is a 24" McGowan 1:16 and scoped is a hair under 7-1/2 pounds. Just right for the old bone to haul up a mountain of a hill. Its a deadly accurate rifle. I love mine and sure you'll find favor in yours when it arrives.

This is the kind of info I need. THANK YOU!!!
Been shooting traditional and inline muzzleloaders for about 45 years.
But zero knowledge on choosing powders for smokeless.

 

[MrTom]

Woodman does a marvelous job of leading you into the smokeless realm but there are several here who are true masters in my opinion an Mr Mnt monkey is one off them. To get up to speed, I'd stay with the powders Woodman has listed except to sub the IMR 4198 for the H4198 simply because they mirror each other so closely. I shoot a lot of the IMR in my Patriot. I've tried a couple others but always come back to IMR4198.

 

[Fishbc]

Thanks guys!!
Likely I am overthinking it. When loading for cartridges I always test many powders.
Think I'll just listen to those with more experience than me on smokeless.

 

[Fishbc]

For the bullet weights you plan to begin with I think the 3 powders listed by Woodman are great starters, but substituting IMR 4198 for the H4198 and not exceeding 56 grains with the 225 grain bullet. I shoot a 225 grain in a blue sabot at 56 grains or IMR4198 and the sabots are not deformed in the least. I have shot 56.5, and 57 grains with the 225 grain without sabot deforming in any way but the recoil starts to get your attention pretty good.

If you settled on bullets lighter than the 225 you could throw the N110 in the mix. As I understand it the N110 is a very nice, clean, mild powder.

Congrats on your future shooter! Mine is a 24" McGowan 1:16 and scoped is a hair under 7-1/2 pounds. Just right for the old bone to haul up a mountain of a hill. Its a deadly accurate rifle. I love mine and sure you'll find favor in yours when it arrives.

What lighter bullets with the N110?

 

[The long rider]

I have tried a few powders when I first started shooting smokeless in the 45 cal. H4198, VV N-120, VV N-130, AA 2015, RL#7, They all perform great. I wanted to get the highest velocity I could get without blowing a sabot, and I found I could get 3000 fps using VV N-120 powder with a 200 gr SST or 195 gr Barnes. RL#7 would be my second choice. Using 72 gr of RL#7 with a Pittman 225 Aeromax bullet will get you 2675 fps. and is super accurate. A few years back my Uncle shot this buck using this combo at 200 yds and he folded up like a cheap card table.

 

[MrTom]

What lighter bullets with the N110?

There are a mess of .40 bullets in lighter weights out there. Barnes TAC-X 125, 140 and 150. Sierra and Speer along with the XTPs come in 155 and 180. A-Frames are a super nice bonded .40 bullet and come in 125, 140 and 150. All N110 medicine.

I've shot every one of these out of my Kodiak using BH 209 and the Patriot with the IMR powder but I don't think I get the juice with the IMR that I would with N110. If you go to bullets heavier than the 225, I think a step up to N120 might better suit the weights.

Of those just listed, I would hunt the two 150's for deer in the Patriot but would scale down the IMR4198 charge to about 53 grains. Honestly for close range deer, say under 50 yards, a person could scoot these smaller pills in sabots along using BH209 at a charge rate of between 80 and 90 grain [v] and maybe realize 2300-2400 fps. Coyotes would absolutely hate these little rippers.

Try this link and look thru the 3 pages of potential bullets that a .40 could use in sabots. Granted, many are not going to be what one would want to hunt deer with but there are a hundred here that I'd try on coyotes and other vermin.

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/556?page=1

 

[Fishbc]

There are a mess of .40 bullets in lighter weights out there. Barnes TAC-X 125, 140 and 150. Sierra and Speer along with the XTPs come in 155 and 180. A-Frames are a super nice bonded .40 bullet and come in 125, 140 and 150. All N110 medicine.

I've shot every one of these out of my Kodiak using BH 209 and the Patriot with the IMR powder but I don't think I get the juice with the IMR that I would with N110. If you go to bullets heavier than the 225, I think a step up to N120 might better suit the weights.

Of those just listed, I would hunt the two 150's for deer in the Patriot but would scale down the IMR4198 charge to about 53 grains. Honestly for close range deer, say under 50 yards, a person could scoot these smaller pills in sabots along using BH209 at a charge rate of between 80 and 90 grain [v] and maybe realize 2300-2400 fps. Coyotes would absolutely hate these little rippers.

Thanks!!

 

[Fishbc]

I have tried a few powders when I first started shooting smokeless in the 45 cal. H4198, VV N-120, VV N-130, AA 2015, RL#7, They all perform great. I wanted to get the highest velocity I could get without blowing a sabot, and I found I could get 3000 fps using VV N-120 powder with a 200 gr SST or 195 gr Barnes. RL#7 would be my second choice. Using 72 gr of RL#7 with a Pittman 225 Aeromax bullet will get you 2675 fps. and is super accurate. A few years back my Uncle shot this buck using this combo at 200 yds and he folded up like a cheap card table.
View attachment 42009

Nice buck!!

Were you shooting those loads in a 45 Patriot?

 

[The long rider]

Nice buck!!

Were you shooting those loads in a 45 Patriot?

That gun is a Remington 700 ML. converted with a McGowen .458 bbl. with a Savage 209 breechplug. I built this gun for my uncle about 12 years ago when the conversions were popular. This Remington/Savage can withstand about 40,000-45,000 psi before the breecplug starts getting flame cutting issues, but the plastic sabot will blow like spaghetti strands at about 37,000 psi. I am unfamiliar with the Patriot Muzzleloader. I would contact the manufacturer to find out how much psi itis rated for. I do know the Reloader #7 powder is about the easiest powder on a sabot as I have ever used. I don't know how much more powder I could have went before the sabot let go. I also believe the Pittman bullet has one of the shortest bearing surface of the 40 caliber bullets which in turn creates less pressure. Here is a photo of the gun with a little buck shot years back.

 

[MrTom]

Mark Woodman advised me to keep the pressures under 45,000 when shooting smokeless but I 'm fine with not going over 40,000. I think I'm seeing just over 2400fps with my 195 grain, .40 cal load using the solid blue sabot and I am not seeing any negative indicators on the spent ones. I have IMR4198 and a couple others that I'll shoot some day at moderate levels. Every time I think I can get my mitts wrapped around a can of N110 it seems to vanish a minute before I get there. Some day though. And when that happens I think I'll stop the powder hunt. I am really quite happy with the IMR 4198.

 

[Fishbc]

That gun is a Remington 700 ML. converted with a McGowen .458 bbl. with a Savage 209 breechplug. I built this gun for my uncle about 12 years ago when the conversions were popular. This Remington/Savage can withstand about 40,000-45,000 psi before the breecplug starts getting flame cutting issues, but the plastic sabot will blow like spaghetti strands at about 37,000 psi. I am unfamiliar with the Patriot Muzzleloader. I would contact the manufacturer to find out how much psi itis rated for. I do know the Reloader #7 powder is about the easiest powder on a sabot as I have ever used. I don't know how much more powder I could have went before the sabot let go. I also believe the Pittman bullet has one of the shortest bearing surface of the 40 caliber bullets which in turn creates less pressure. Here is a photo of the gun with a little buck shot years back.
View attachment 42021

The Patriot will handle up to 45,000 PSI.
My question would be how do you know what pressure any particular bullet/powder/grains of powder generates?

There are a mess of .40 bullets in lighter weights out there. Barnes TAC-X 125, 140 and 150. Sierra and Speer along with the XTPs come in 155 and 180. A-Frames are a super nice bonded .40 bullet and come in 125, 140 and 150. All N110 medicine.

I've shot every one of these out of my Kodiak using BH 209 and the Patriot with the IMR powder but I don't think I get the juice with the IMR that I would with N110. If you go to bullets heavier than the 225, I think a step up to N120 might better suit the weights.

Of those just listed, I would hunt the two 150's for deer in the Patriot but would scale down the IMR4198 charge to about 53 grains. Honestly for close range deer, say under 50 yards, a person could scoot these smaller pills in sabots along using BH209 at a charge rate of between 80 and 90 grain [v] and maybe realize 2300-2400 fps. Coyotes would absolutely hate these little rippers.

Try this link and look thru the 3 pages of potential bullets that a .40 could use in sabots. Granted, many are not going to be what one would want to hunt deer with but there are a hundred here that I'd try on coyotes and other vermin.

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/556?page=1

Won't the terminal velocities be be to high with many of those bullets for hunting? Most handgun bullets are meant for under 1,800 FPS.

 

[Decay]

To start I plan on using the 40 cal Fury 225 and 250 gr. star tipped in the Blue Harvester Crush Rib Sabot.

 

[Decay]

I was not aware for a long time that Harvester has two light blue sabots for the 45/40 shooting. One is the crush rib, the other is smooth sided. I now have both. They are slightly different and you might get different results depending on which you use. I have not yet done enough testing to see which is better in my Paramount/Woodman/Brux 45, 1:18. And when my Patriot arrives I'll do the comparison testing again.

 

[MrTom]

Won't the terminal velocities be be to high with many of those bullets for hunting? Most handgun bullets are meant for under 1,800 FPS.

More than likely on deer or maybe hogs, but they'd be great for coyotes or other vermin. More than anything I was just pointing out that the .40 realm is not as small as some think it to be.

 

[The long rider]

The Sabot is your safety valve. It will let go around 37,000 and when it does let go it looks like tangled up strands of plastic, not just a torn base. Once this happens I would back off one or two grains of powder with that bullet/powder combo. Every bullet is different because of the different bearing surfaces. I have found the Pittman Accumax 225 gr. bullet works very well with the Harvester light blue sabot and my powder of choice is Alliant RL#7. H-4198 and VV N-120 work great as well.
I would stay away from any 40 cal. pistol bullet for hunting. They are not designed to be pushed that fast.

 

[MrTom]

I would stay away from any 40 cal. pistol bullet for hunting. They are not designed to be pushed that fast.

I'd argue that the 195 grain Barnes and the 225 grain Fury, both at .40 are decent hunting bullets. The Fury is bonded and will handle some higher speeds and the all copper Barnes has felled a few deer for me. Otherwise I'd tend to agree with your statement unless one really studies the bullet and it's intended use. There are an awful lot of pistol bullets in .40 cal that probably would act like a bomb went off at impact.

 

[The long rider]

I'd argue that the 195 grain Barnes and the 225 grain Fury, both at .40 are decent hunting bullets. The Fury is bonded and will handle some higher speeds and the all copper Barnes has felled a few deer for me. Otherwise I'd tend to agree with your statement unless one really studies the bullet and it's intended use. There are an awful lot of pistol bullets in .40 cal that probably would act like a bomb went off at impact.

I have used the 195 gr. Barnes to harvest a few deer and never had to look too far to find-em. I have not used the Fury 225 gr bullet, but I never considered those to be pistol bullets.
I stopped using the Barnes 195 gr. because of the low B.C. .176 I had my gun zeroed in at 200 yds. and at 300 yds. it shot 12" low. The Pittman 225 gr Accumax and the Fury shoot much flatter and perform well on deer.