New and looking to learn

[sdkidaho]

I've never owned a muzzleloader before and after some research, decided on a Knight Ultra Lite.

I live in Idaho and so the rules for hunting with a muzzle loader in muzzleloader season, are:

LEGAL IN MUZZLELOADER-ONLY SEASONS

A muzzle loading rifle or musket which:
Is capable of being loaded ONLY from the muzzle.
Is equipped with a single or double-barrel.
Is loaded ONLY with loose black powder OR other loose synthetic black powder.
Is loaded with a patched round ball OR a conical, unjacketed projectile comprised wholly of lead or lead alloy. No sabots.
Is loaded with a projectile that is within .010 of an inch of the bore diameter.
Is equipped ONLY with a flint OR a percussion cap OR a musket cap. 209 primers are prohibited.
Is equipped with an ignition system in which any portion of the cap is clearly exposed and visible when the hammer of the weapon is cocked and ready to fire.
Has no scope, only open or peep sights. Fiber optic open sites are permitted.
Is free of any electronic devices.
Is at least forty-five (.45) caliber for deer, antelope, or mountain lion.
Is at least fifty (.50) caliber for elk, moose, bighorn sheep, mountain goat, or black bear.

Link: https://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/hunt/rules/?getPage=299

Items in bold were emphasized by me.

I bought the "Western" model of the Ultra Lite so that it has the open breech so as to be legal in my state. Other than having the gun, I have nothing else.
1. No bullets.
2. No powder.
3. Nothing to measure or carry powder.
4. No ignition source.
5. No cleaning kit.
6. What else am I missing from this list of things I don't have?

I haven't ever reloaded for myself, so I'm not educated in that, but hoping to learn at some point as well - not sure if that matters but it seemed like knowledge of that wouldn't hurt. I'll be hunting elk with this gun, possibly antelope, but elk for certain.

Are there any guys that hunt with the same limitations that my state has that can maybe provide me with some guidance? Thanks for your time.

Darby

 

[ShawnT]

Hey Darby,

First off.. Welcome to the Forum!.

You definitely bought a great Muzzleloader. I just recently acquired one myself though it had a bare primer ignition. There is a Member here that is one of you Gurus and he lives there in Idaho. Sabotloader Is his handle here. I'm sure he will see your post and chime in. IdahoRon is another one of our members and is a real Guru in the Lead Casting department and well as Paper patching if that is something your interested in.

I would suggest you get either CCI #11Mag caps or the RWS 1075. I have not used the RWS but those here that do say they are a great "Hot" #11 cap. For Powder, I would go with Triple 7 2F Or Pyrodex since you are shooting a #11 cap ignition. Get yourself a good Volumetric Powder measure to "Measure" out the powder. You mentioned Reloading so I sort of assume you are referring to Metallic cartridge reloading. While one can help with the other they are not really the same. While reading here you will see that some do weight Black powder subs like BlackHorn 209. Just be aware that In Muzzleloading all Weights in grains listed are by "Volume" done with a Volumetric measure NOT a reloading scale, they are not the same. Basically Black powder and the BP Sub powders such as Pyrodex, 777, APP, Blackhorn209 will weigh much different on a scale compared to a Volume measure. 100 grains of say 777 2F will not weight 100 grains on a reloading scale for metallic cartridges, If I recall the Conversion it would weigh 77.7 grains on a scale.

Thee is some great info for Newbies in the New to Muzzleloaders Forum. If you have not seen the check it out.

Here is a couple Links.

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=20963

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=19040

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=3014

Stay Safe and by all means have fun! You might find that this is one Very addictive sport! :wink:

 

[sdkidaho]

Thanks ShawnT, much appreciated. I had read through those links you provided - good resource. I appreciate the information on volume vs scale measuring as well. I had read that earlier today also and wasn't sure if reloading for brass cartridges would be helpful or not.

I had been looking at the Triple Seven and Pyrodex, so I'm glad you mentioned those. I wasn't sure if the Triple Seven was ok to use as it said:

Use Triple Seven only in a 209 primer ignition system. Pyrodex may be used with standard cap, musket cap or 209 primer ignition systems

but that was referring to the pellets not the loose powder:

Percussion Firearms: Select the proper charge from the loads listed in this brochure. Set powder measure as indicated. While holding the firearm vertically, slowly pour the measured charge of Triple Seven or Pyrodex into the barrel. Seat the projectile firmly against the powder . Make sure that there is no airspace between the powder and the projectile.

2. No powder. - Triple Seven 2F (is that the FFG?): https://www.hodgdon.com/tripleseven-granular.html and Pyrodex (use the Pyrodex RS or Select?): https://www.hodgdon.com/pyrodex-granular.html

3. Nothing to measure or carry powder. - Volumetric Powder measure (Any suggestions on which one?) I read an article about getting consistent loads, but either way, I'd still need the volumetric powder measure: http://blog.davide-pedersoli.com/the-most-accurate-way-of-measuring-your-powder-charges/

I'll check out the mag caps you mentioned as well:
4. No ignition source. - CCI #11M http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/primers/primers.aspx?id=28 or RWS 1075 http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/...l/Powder-and-Primers/prod9999010780/cat100011

Thanks again for your help!

 

[WV Hunter]

Welcome sdkidaho

Lots of great folks and info here, hope you stick around :yeah:

You bought what is probably the best production ML availble, kudos to you!!!
Pyrodex RS is fine - Select is supposedly a little more uniform. I use Pyro RS in my #11 ignition rifles and its very consistent for me. Many use T7 with great luck as well...it is a little hotter powder, fwiw. Its really up to you. Around here, the price of T7 has shot up recently, not sure why. :huh?:

To add to what ShawnT said...
I would pick up a volume measurer - either something like a TC U-View or a Brass Measure, some type of bullet starter TC bullet starter or Knight bullet starter, a SpinJag for cleaning, and you will need to try a few bullets to see what you and your rifle likes. I'm sure some of our Idaho guys can chime in to guide you there. I would also pick up some Lane's Tubes for your loads. These are great, inexpensive ways to store/transport your pre-measured loads for both the range and hunting.

This ML thing is pretty simple really, once you know what you are doing. Pour the powder in on a clean dry barrel, push your bullet down and seat firmly... cap the rifle and you are set to fire!

I would recommend swabbing between shots... you can use a lightly dampened patch (alcohol, windex, etc) works great. Just make sure the barrel is NOT wet when you load the next load of powder. The swabbing is not fully cleaning, just knocking down the fouling so loading is easier and consistent shot to shot.

Be sure to fully clean and oil your rifle after shooting, preferably the same day is best. Not good to leave the rifle dirty long, the fouling is corrosive. If for some reason you can't fully clean the same day after you shot it, at least run a damp patch through to knock down the heavy stuff, then clean the next day for sure. The death of many great rifles has come due to improper care, unfortunately.

Enjoy the journey, you will learn alot and probably make some mistakes. Don't hesitate to ask questions. :yeah:

 

[ShawnT]

Thanks ShawnT, much appreciated. I had read through those links you provided - good resource. I appreciate the information on volume vs scale measuring as well. I had read that earlier today also and wasn't sure if reloading for brass cartridges would be helpful or not.

I had been looking at the Triple Seven and Pyrodex, so I'm glad you mentioned those. I wasn't sure if the Triple Seven was ok to use as it said:

Use Triple Seven only in a 209 primer ignition system. Pyrodex may be used with standard cap, musket cap or 209 primer ignition systems

but that was referring to the pellets not the loose powder:

Percussion Firearms: Select the proper charge from the loads listed in this brochure. Set powder measure as indicated. While holding the firearm vertically, slowly pour the measured charge of Triple Seven or Pyrodex into the barrel. Seat the projectile firmly against the powder . Make sure that there is no airspace between the powder and the projectile.

2. No powder. - Triple Seven 2F (is that the FFG?): https://www.hodgdon.com/tripleseven-granular.html and Pyrodex (use the Pyrodex RS or Select?): https://www.hodgdon.com/pyrodex-granular.html

3. Nothing to measure or carry powder. - Volumetric Powder measure (Any suggestions on which one?) I read an article about getting consistent loads, but either way, I'd still need the volumetric powder measure: http://blog.davide-pedersoli.com/the-most-accurate-way-of-measuring-your-powder-charges/

I'll check out the mag caps you mentioned as well:
4. No ignition source. - CCI #11M http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/primers/primers.aspx?id=28 or RWS 1075 http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/...l/Powder-and-Primers/prod9999010780/cat100011

Thanks again for your help!

No problem that's what we are all here for! :wink:

WV Hunter gave your more good info above. I would love to try the RWS Caps myself but have never seen them locally for me. Mostly CCI's here. But I like the Mag cap and they never let me down.

Right the Pellets do not do well with #11 Caps so don't bother with them. Right 2F and FFG mean the same thing. Some do use 3F in their 50 cals too but others stick to the 2f.

I forgot to mention the Lanes Tubes. They are very inexpensive and work great for the Range and hunting. :yeah: I don't use a flask. For the range I just use a bottle Funnel that replaces the cap on the bottle. Such as the one in this link.
http://www.cabelas.com/product/shooting ... _104511780

 

[sdkidaho]

Thanks W V Hunter and ShawnT again! You guys are awesome - that is all very helpful information.

I'll go buy a few things to start getting lined out so that I can go and shoot.

Lanes Tubes - what size do you recommend as I'm not sure how much powder there will be for a normal load? These look great for packing pre-measured amounts of powder, bullets and caps (separately of course).

Bullets. I've been looking at the Powerbelt 405 gr, maybe the 348 gr.

I had seen the spinjag as well. With that, I've seen guys having more than one ram rod? Should I do that as well and is that 3-piece rod that they make ok, or do I need to even worry about a second rod or maybe get a different one? Will the rod that came with my Ultra Lite work with the spin jag attachment?

Cleaning stuff. Do you guys have favorite products that you feel like you trust and wouldn't want to live without, or that you don't leave home without when hitting the range and or hunting?

I also had a question about the breech plug. After ShawnT mentioned Sabotloader I went and looked up his posts and started reading through them to find out whatever information I could glean from them. I read a post about wrapping the breech plug with white or pink plumbers tape? That really looked better to me versus using grease. What do you guys think of that and is there a certain type of tape that works better than others?

Thanks again, guys. I appreciate your help!

 

[Hornet22savage]

If limited to full bore bullets, I would look at the Hornady FPB or some No Excuses or Bullshop conicals before spending money on powerbelts.

 

[WV Hunter]

Agree with Hornet on the PB's. Personally, you couldn't pay me to use them. They have without a doubt the worst reputation of any ML bullet out there. I know some folks have had good luck with them, but I want to know for sure what will happen when I shoot game. No guessing and praying they work.

The Lanes tubes... the regular size (not the small or giant) work perfect. I do use tape on my Knight disc rifles BP. Works just fine :yeah: Learned it from Sabotloader Grease will certainly work, its just whatever you prefer.

Sabotloader has a UL and hunts in Idaho... you could hit him up on what he uses load wise, I'm sure he'll help you out.

 

[WV Hunter]

I had seen the spinjag as well. With that, I've seen guys having more than one ram rod? Should I do that as well and is that 3-piece rod that they make ok, or do I need to even worry about a second rod or maybe get a different one? Will the rod that came with my Ultra Lite work with the spin jag attachment?

The spin jag will work on any ramrod. It just screws in. The nice thing about the Knight ramrod is that it is quite sturdy and extends. So when in the field you can give a quick swab between shots (if using non-bh209 powder) and you are good to go. No additional tools, jags, handles, etc...just extend, swab and done. You can also use it on the bench if needed. I used mine for years before getting a nice range rod.

For a bench rod/range rod, if you can find a Knight Ultimate that is one fantastic rod. But they quit making them, some still show up once in a while. Grouse said that Lehigh was going to begin selling that same rod again here soon... no idea on ETA. Maybe he will chime in. If it was me, I'd use your factory rod for everything right now until Lehigh comes out with it. Its definitely worth the approx ~ $60 or so that they will cost.

 

[cayuga]

Sabotloader, is a Knight rifle huge source of information. He's also an Idaho resident and knows the laws and what does and does not work for elk and deer. Also he's a great guy to talk to and interact with. I am sure he could suggest loads for your rifle, what's legal, and what to expect. Welcome to the forum.

 

[sdkidaho]

Thanks again guys!

Hornady FPB or some No Excuses or Bullshop conicals

I had seen the Bullshop's mentioned and tried to look them up last night but wasn't overly successful. The website I found them on seemed outdated or...?

I'll check out the others as well. I appreciate the input. It's nice to be steered away from stuff that's no good so as to not have to suffer testing it and reinventing the wheel so to speak.

 

[Hornet22savage]

Bullshop's doesn't have a website as far as I know. He does however have an e-mail address and it floating around on this forum somewhere, along with a picture of what he offers. PM Sabotloader we can help you out a lot.

 

[Dave C]

I was in your boat last year o this forum and gleaned a lot from these guys. Also learned a lot through trial and error and tinkering. Here's what I concluded with regards to your situation(I too hunt in ID):

1. The Knight rifles are pretty decent in the way of accuracy. So are the Whites. (I now own one of each and they both shoot about the same)
2. Get rid of the open sights and switch to a peep for the rear and down-size the front bead. There are a couple threads here or over on the main forum that have a lot of information in them.
3. Be careful shooting T7 powder without cleaning. It leaves a "crud ring" in the barrel and can make removing your breech plug very difficult. I have tried FFG and FFFG and the results are pretty similar. FFG is a little cleaner to work with. It's just a larger grain size. I wish I could use BH209 in ID as it sounds like a cleaner and better powder but the cap restriction prohibits that for us. If I draw a tag in another state though, I may switch one of my guns over to a 209 ignition.
4. As some have mentioned, the RWS caps are hotter and I prefer them. Unfortunately(as usual), they're also about twice the price. I've tried both the CCI and Remington caps as well but have chosen to stick with the RWS for ignition reliability.
5. I tried just about every conical/non-saboted bullet made. Ultimately, I got the best results and groups with the No Excuses bullets. I got good groups with Powerbelts as well but was a little leery of their performance on game based on some of the reviews. Unfortunately, I got a bad batch of No Excuses bullets right before my ID hunt(it was a batch of impure lead and my groups exploded due to tumbling of the bullets) He couldn't pour me some more before my hunt so I had to use the PB's which I had load tested before and knew shot decent groups. I won't use them again. Maybe it was a coincidence, but I shot a bull at 130 yds. First I thought I missed as he didn't look like he was hit at all. I waited 30 min and went to check for blood. There was good blood indicating a lung hit which surprised me. I tracked that bull for over a mile into the nastiest, thickest, steepest country in ID. I finally caught up with him an hour later. He was bedded but still alive so I dispatched with another shot to the neck. I don't know how deep the bullet penetrated as I use the gutless method. What I do know is that the shot was well-placed into the vitals. I probably could not have placed it much better at 130 yds within the MOA margin for error. That bull didn't even shudder. He walked off like nothing happened. It's possible I only got one lung of penetration but I still would have expected a little more kinetic energy dispersion into him. It was enough to confirm my suspicions and concerns regarding PB's and I'll stick with the No Excuses from now on and make sure I have plenty on hand.

Hope some of this is helpful. Good luck.

 

[sdkidaho]

Thanks Dave, definitely helpful. I looked at the No Excuses bullets. I saw a few other guys talking about them as well and I think that might be what Sabotloader uses as I seem to remember that 460 gr size in one of his posts that I read.

 

[GoexBlackhorn]

People here complain about Powerbelts, like there's only one model and one size of them. That's not the case thou.

There are good Powerbelts and bad Powerbelts. We have used good Powerbelts and never had any regrets. The Platinums are very good, from 270gr - 300gr - to 330 gr. The HP Coppers are good also, in 295/348gr. I would decline using any leaded HPs and decline using any Aerotips. I have not engaged any Aerolites, so I cannot comment on those.

The only issue I have with the Powerbelts I own are the price. I always buy on closeout sales in December. I can get them as low as 65 cents then. They are more accurate at longer distances than the No Excuses and I have plenty of experience with Excuses. If shot too fast, they pencil thru. My best luck at expansion was using no more than 75 grains volume of real blackpowder.

 

[sdkidaho]

Unfortunately I can only use lead here in Idaho, during muzzleloader season.

 

[GM54-120]

I have plenty of experience with Excuses. If shot too fast, they pencil thru.

I would love to see the evidence that a soft lead bullet shot too fast will pencil through. That huge metplat on them pretty much ensures excellent trauma to tissue. Soft lead will typically flatten far more at higher velocity. Barrel leading and poor accuracy are the only problems ive seen with excessive velocity and soft lead bullets.

 

[Squeeze]

Ive shot a bunch with lead. Both muzzleloader and shotgun (self cast reloads, and a recipe handed down from my father, who passed them out to most of his hunting buddies. Im sure well over 100 have been shot with them over the years) Most of my deer are close (~50 yards and less) I use clip on wheel weights for slug, and im using them now for 308 grn cast sabot bullets. I shot a few with pure lead, and fast or slow, the expansion and damage was way overkill. The reason I went to a harder lead. I like to eat them, not blow them up. I dont think I have any pictures, But the deciding deer looked like someone pitched a softball through the far shoulder.

 

[rangerod]

Check out the Parker Hydracon. Full bore lead .50cal 440 grn. Don't have any personal experience with these but maybe someone on the forum does.