bullet Length/Diameter - Twist rate...

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sabotloader

Keep Shooting Muzzleloaders - They are a Blast
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I know a lot of you probably have this information but it seems 'Twist Rates' come up often on the forum. This seems to be a simple explanation of the Greenhill formula which might help some - I found it to be an interesting read... I am sure it is not as simple as the article suggests but it certainly gives you some guidelines....

Twist Rate

Bullet stability depends primarily on gyroscopic forces, the spin around the longitudinal axis of the bullet imparted by the twist of the rifling. Once the spinning bullet is pointed in the direction the shooter wants, it tends to travel in a straight line until it is influenced by outside forces such as gravity, wind and impact with the target.

Rifling is the spiral or helix grooves inside the barrel of a rifle or handgun. These grooves were invented a long time ago, perhaps as early as the 14th century. However, the smooth bore, using the round ball, was the choice of weapons for warfare even through the American Revolutionary war. The smooth bore musket could be loaded faster than the rifle and didn?t foul, as bad, with the combustion products of black powder.

The rifling grooves helix is expressed in a twist rate or number of complete revolutions the grooves make in one inch of barrel length. A 1in10 or 1:10 would be one complete turn in 10 inches of barrel length.

How important is twist rate? David Tubb, a winner of several NRA High Power Rifle Championships, was using a .243 rifle with a 1 in 8.5 twist barrel. He wasn?t able to get consistent accuracy until he changed to a rifle barrel with a 1 in 8 twist. The ?" twist change made all the difference between winning or losing the match.

A term we often hear is "overstabilization" of the bullet. This doesn?t happen. Either a bullet is stable or it isn?t. Too little twist will not stabilize the bullet, while too much twist, with a couple of exceptions, does little harm. Faster than optimum twists tend to exaggerate errors in bullet concentricity and may cause wobble. The faster twist also causes the bullet to spin at higher rpm, which can cause bullet blowup or disintegration because of the high centrifugal forces generated. For example, the .220 Swift, at 4,000 fps., spins the 50-grain bullet at 240,000 rpm.

One of the first persons to try to develop a formula for calculating the correct rate of twist for firearms, was George Greenhill, a mathematics lecturer at Emanuel College in Cambridge, England. His formula is based on the rule that the twist required in calibers equals 150 divided by the length of the bullet in calibers. This can be simplified to:

Twist = 150 X D2/L

Where:
D = bullet diameter in inches
L= bullet length in inches
150 = a constant

This formula had limitations, but worked well up to and in the vicinity of about 1,800 f.p.s. For higher velocities most ballistic experts suggest substituting 180 for 150 in the formula. The twist formulas used in the Load From a Disk program, featured at this web site, uses a modified Greenhill formula in which the "150" constant is replaced by a series of equations that allow corrections for muzzle velocity from 1,100 to 4,000 fps.

The Greenhill formula is simple and easy to apply and gives a useful approximation to the desired twist. The Greenhill formula was based on a bullet with a specific gravity of 10.9, which is about right for the jacketed lead core bullet. Notice that bullet weight does not directly enter into the equation. For a given caliber, the heavier the bullet the longer the bullet will be. So bullet weight affects bullet length and bullet length is used in the formula.

To measure the twist of a barrel, use a cleaning rod and a tight patch. Start the patch down the barrel and mark the rod at the muzzle. Push in the rod slowly until it has made one revolution, and then make a second mark on the rod at the muzzle. The distance between marks is the twist of your barrel.

To see how this works out, assume you bought a .222 Remington rifle and you measured the twist rate as described above. The twist was 1 in 14. You have two .224 bullets you want to use, the 70-grain Speer SPS and the 50-grain Hornady SX. The Speer bullet measures .812 inches in length and the Hornady measures .520 inches. Using the formula above we calculate the following twist rate:

Speer 70-grain: 1 in 9
Hornady 50-grain: 1 in 14

These calculations show that the 50-grain bullet will be stabilized, but the 70-grain won?t. Sure enough, when you try these bullets out, the 50-grain shoots ? MOA while the 70-grain won?t group on the paper at 50 yards. Twist is important!
 
derfhunter

X(twist) = 150 x diameter squared divided by Length

x=150x(.224x.224)/.812
x=150x.050176/.812
x=7.5264/.812
x= 9.2689....

Twist rate 1/9

Does that give you the idea -somebody that is a better mathematician than me - check it...
 
Well, I just ordered some 300 gr Thors to use in my 1 in 28 Knight LRH.

The 250 gr is right at one inch. Plugging in to that formula using a 50 caliber comes out with a twist of 37.5

If the 300s are 1.25 inches, that would come up with a twist of 30.

Did I do the math right?

So my 1 in 28 might just be pretty close. Will be fun finding out.
 
txhunter58

Did you remember to change the 150 factor to 180 if you plan on shooting a velocity @ 1800 or above...

The other thing remember the statement about 'over stabilization' even if your twist rate is a bit faster than calculated it will shoot well if the the bullet is round and weight is evenly distributed - other you will induce wobble.

I think your math is correct....

so your 1/28 would tend to 'over stabilize' - but if the bullet is well made it should not make any difference.

Most of all remember this is an "approximate" twist rate formula..
 
How do sabots play into this?Does it matter that they increase the dia. of the bullet while in the bore,and once the sabot falls off the dia. decreases?

Probably not.I'm just thinking out loud...

Good info Sabotloader.Thanks.
 
I usually shoot between 90 to 100 gr of BH 209. With a 300 gr bullet, don't think it would be over 1800 fps. A 295 powerbelt at 100 gr comes out at 1620, so that should be ballpark. Course BH is prob 15% stronger.

Just have to try them and see how they shoot. It is a tough job, but someone has to do it!
 
cell

Sabots do not count as they come off very quickly... Although if the slips in the bore or the bullet slips in the sabots and fails to reach RPM's while it is in the barrel - that will be a problem.
 
I saw this on another forum but the break for 150 versus 180 was above/below 2800 fps - not sure which is correct. And I was told to measure the bullet only - not to include the sabot. I was trying to find out if there was an optimum velocity for a particular bullet weght/length being shot from a particular rate of twist.

It's said you have to find a particular load/bullet combo that your ml likes but was wondering if it's really a specific fps for a given bullet weight/length that we're trying to find since we're trying various amounts of powder which actually delivers different velocities.

For example, if 1937 fps was the optimum velocity to stabilize a particular 250gr bullet .452" dia. .985" long bullet, you could shoot various powder charges in front of a chrono until it gets close to the 1937 fps - instead of shooting groups of 3 or 5 shots at various powder charges all day long - just my take.
 
sabotloader said:
cell

Sabots do not count as they come off very quickly... Although if the slips in the bore or the bullet slips in the sabots and fails to reach RPM's while it is in the barrel - that will be a problem.

the bullet does not touch the barrel in MUZZLELOADING only the sabot touches and is spun around inside the barrel ..

if the bullet slips inside the sabot accuracy will be affected ,that is why from experiance a tight loading sabot bullet combo is more accurate .

with a CENTER FIRE it,s the bullet that touches the inside of the barrel and is spun around inside the barrel ..

i hope others will chime in [very interesting read] sabotloader
 
tpcollins said:
I saw this on another forum but the break for 150 versus 180 was above/below 2800 fps - not sure which is correct. And I was told to measure the bullet only - not to include the sabot. I was trying to find out if there was an optimum velocity for a particular bullet weght/length being shot from a particular rate of twist.

It's said you have to find a particular load/bullet combo that your ml likes but was wondering if it's really a specific fps for a given bullet weight/length that we're trying to find since we're trying various amounts of powder which actually delivers different velocities.

For example, if 1937 fps was the optimum velocity to stabilize a particular 250gr bullet .452" dia. .985" long bullet, you could shoot various powder charges in front of a chrono until it gets close to the 1937 fps - instead of shooting groups of 3 or 5 shots at various powder charges all day long - just my take.

The Greenhill formula is old and simple but still very reliable.

In reply to your question or statement concerning optimum velocity resulting in optimum accuracy.......IMO the answer is no. There may well be an optimum velocity for a particular rifle,load,bullet etc that achieves optimum accuracy but that result is derived from many factors.
 
sabotloader said:
cell

Sabots do not count as they come off very quickly... Although if the slips in the bore or the bullet slips in the sabots and fails to reach RPM's while it is in the barrel - that will be a problem.

I agree "sabotloader" , it's the bullet!

The possibilty of slippage of the bullet in the sabot that would preclude imparting spin to the bullet is essentially non-existant. Now if you loaded a sabot bullet combo for a 45 caliber rifle in a 50 caliber rifle you probably would realize slippage of the outside diameter of the sabot....but....if that loose combo bumped the rifling as it "rattled" thru the bore some spin may well be imparted to the sabot and the bullet inside it.
 
black powder

the bullet does not touch the barrel in MUZZLELOADING only the sabot touches and is spun around inside the barrel ..

if the bullet slips inside the sabot accuracy will be affected ,that is why from experiance a tight loading sabot bullet combo is more accurate .

For a lack of a better term - it is still the RPM's of a given length and diameter that detirmine accuracy - stabilization - over a given distance. Even though there is a sabot involved it does not travel attched to the bullet - if it did then you would need to count it's diameter... And since there is no such thing as 'over stabilization' the only effect of spinning too fast is the construction of the bullet... which might lead to a wobble which will effect accuracy...
 
sabotloader

220gr TCFP
OAL .745
Diameter .401
Bearing surface .530...not that its part of the equation

What twist looks the best according to the formula?
 
GM-I ain't no mathematician but I come up with:

1/32
 
The actual 180 constant was developed by the military when the 30:06 cartridge was being developed and is actually based on a 30 caliber bullets at 2800 FPS.
The original formula with a 150 constant does quite well up to 2300 FPS and down to 1400 FPS if doing the formula on your own as I do I believe that instead of jumping to 180 as most books say the practical way to handle it is to break it down by tens.
At 2300+ I use 160, at 2600- 170, and at 2800- 180.
Over stabilization may cause a bullet to wobble if its bad enough but there is a lot more latitude than with under stabilization which seems to have an immediate effect. Lee
 
RAZORBACK said:
The Greenhill formula is old and simple but still very reliable.

In reply to your question or statement concerning optimum velocity resulting in optimum accuracy.......IMO the answer is no. There may well be an optimum velocity for a particular rifle,load,bullet etc that achieves optimum accuracy but that result is derived from many factors.

What would be those many factors then? Granted a load may shoot different at 25 degrees versus 80 degrees, and at an altitude of 1000 ' versus 10,000', but are we talking thousands or inches in differences? At some point a load that works well I would think it's going to boil down to the bullet and powder charge driving it at a particular velocity.

Whether the formula is applicable or not - my 260 gr Dead Center is .429" in diameter and .9805" long which equates to a twist of 28.16. Both of my rifles are 1:28" so that works but I would think each would shoot this bullet/sabot differently at 1700 fps versus 2100 fps. Other than more or less powder which changes velocity, I'm not sure what else would be different if my loading practices were consistant. Any help would be appreciated.
 
Pi are round cornbread are square

Them add ons and take aways don't give me much trouble but them gazzinta's throw me everytime.

ya know 4 gazzinta 9 and 3 gazzinta 5
I hate those
 
sabotloader said:
For a lack of a better term - it is still the RPM's of a given length and diameter that detirmine accuracy - stabilization - over a given distance.

sabotloader - that makes sense to me . . . . but what can you do to vary the RPMs of a given length and diameter bullet to determine what RPM works the best? Thanks.
 
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