A few questions about bullets and sabots@ Triple 7 veloc.

[kevinbrian]

Good afternoon friends.....I CAN call you 'friend' I assume.....even though we have never met?? Well, if not, I certainly have been treated...even BETTER....than a friend by many of you here. No....not trying to flatter you. I hate to type and flattery is merely wasted words to try and get ones way. Anyone with any wits about him/her can spot a flatter-er in a second. But I have been so impressed lately at the act of kindnesses shown be by members of Modern Muzzloading, that I want to check in every day. And HERE are a few questions....whos' answer might prove beneficial to someone.....and may prove VERY beneficial to our quarry (deer, hogs, bear, coyotes, and the like). Sure....I could grab my 742 and load it with some old 150 gr Silvertips and hunt. But there is just something that appeals strongly to me about being a .......RELOADER! And that is precisely what we are. We reload our own.....shells (so to speak) everytime we load up and shoot!!! So when we shoot a 1.5 inch or a MOA group at 100......brother......we earned it!!!! But lots of trial and error. And lots of help from fellow muzzleloader-ists. Okay...I'm through trying to wax philosophical.....and get right to the point: Terminal performance of bullets (within our velocties of Trip 7, Pyrodex, Swiss Black, Goex, etc etc) Around mid 1000's. Maybe pushing 1800 with 250 grain projectiles.
Number one: For whitetail deer......what is your favorite bullet. Let's say that our goal is to drop the deer 'right there' or a maximum of 50 yards. (I'm red/green color- blind....or something makes it very difficult to see blood on an Autumn forest floor. So far....Mine is the 250 Grain Barnes Expander. I shot one doe two years ago that made it 15 feet (not yards). But then.....I shot another doe.....in the same area of the chest.....that was able to run about 60 yards (although I didn;t actually step it off). Just rough estimate. I was using 85 grains of Trip 7 FFg.
Guys (and gals if there are any)....... I have some 260 grain (marketed by Traditions) Ballistoc Extremes coming on UPS today. Midsouth sells them. I will select a sabot that they feel tight in.
But what about 300 grain bullets (in our velocity range). Can we get good expansion from the 300 grain projectiles??? If so......what's your fave?? 300 gr XTP's? What about 250 grain XTP's??? These 2 bullets are designed for pistol velocities so they should be the cats meow for good terminal performance.
Question 2: In the Harvester line of sabots....aren't they all basically the same diameter (when paired with a bullet) ....EXCEPT for the red (smokeless) crush rib?? If so, an besides the red crush rib..... if I want to shoot a .450 bullet.....I'll need a snug fitting sabot. HPH12? Red Crush rib??
These are just thoughts for the day, muzzleloader-wise, that I have been thinking as I decide on a bullet to use on opening morning of ML season....not this Saturday.....but the next. Happy Shooting and Hunting!!

 

[Edwardamason]

Re: A few questions about bullets and sabots@ Triple 7 velo

Ive hunted with a lot of MZ bullets over my days. But no where near all of them.

My best bang flops have come from my Savage MLII and 42gr VV N110 and .452 250 GR XTP with MMP Short Black Sabot. Started Hunting with that ML and load in about 2001 until just last season. Its been my main AX. I love the Savage ML all except one thing. The darn thing feels like a club in my hands when I carry it in the woods. I am all about Ultra Lights now days.

Last year I got my Reminton 700 ML Bolt Nose conversion Kit sorted out and discovered BH209 powder for it and a rebirth of sorts took place. My Reminton is a tad bit light and just feels and balances better and shoots a tad bit tighter so I took it out hunted wtih it. Used 100 Gr of Bh209 .452 250 Gr XTP with MMP Short Black Sabot. Speeds were in the 1900 FPS. Deer went down but No bang flops like the Savage MLII put them down. Obviously the extra 200+ FPS the Savage Produces with the Same bullet makes a world of difference. Next time out with the Reminton 700 ML will be with .458 bullets and Harvester Black Crush Ribbed.

Although the .250 Gr XtP has served me really well I am gearing towards .458 rifle bullets in almost ALL of Ml applications that will shoot over 1900 FPS. I feel better about the fit of the sabot to bullet fit in my barrels that I have tested and I feel more confident in the construction of the rifle bullets than I do some of the pistol bullets. In the end we are pushing pistol bullets at speeds they were not intended to be shot at. Clearly they are working but these rifle bullets were intended to be shot at the speeds we are shooting them at. So I suspect if I do run into a band of zombies that are bigger than I am. I will be prepared. :mrgreen:

 

[Edwardamason]

Re: A few questions about bullets and sabots@ Triple 7 velo

The Harvester Red Crush Ribbed are intended for .451 and .452 bullets. According to Harvester they are intended for Smokless guns.

But in reality none of the smokless crowd are really using them. Most are using the black crush ribbed for the most part.


Ive tried them in several of my Ml's. Not found one that really liked it well yet.

As far as 85 grains goes you sound about right on your velosities. Bang flops are a bit of mystery. Ive had bang flops at 1600fps before but I have had far more at 2300 FPS.

Im not saying you need to bump up your powder charge. Let your MZ tell you what it likes the best. I much prefer a accurate load as opposed to a wiz bang death stomping burn the earth up load. A miss is still a miss.

Truth be told pretty much any of the conventional pistol bullets or rifle bullets traveling at inline speeds of 1600FPS to 2300 FPS with a properly place shot Broadside double lung shot is going to ethically and humanly take down a whitetail deer. Its those iffy shots or questionable shots that seperate the men from the boys and bullets from bullets.

 

[kevinbrian]

Re: A few questions about bullets and sabots@ Triple 7 velo

Thank you Edwardamason. Yes, I did the Savage thing for a few years. Had about 7 of them and I ordered a PacNor 45 barrel and changed that sucker out (wheat a job!!!). But I learned something for that. That barrel would shoot saboted bullets at 1.5 inches (more commonely 2 inches) at 300 yards with a duplexed load of N-120 o'er N-110. Or H322 over N110. I have NEVER had a Muzzleloader that had such a smooooooooth bore.....the saboted bullets (which would be a rough ride down a Chrome Moly (blued) Savage 10ml-2 50 CAL) would just gliiiiide down that Pacnor barrel. Know what?? I wish that I could get a Pacnor barrel for my MK-85!!! I'd get a 45 cal in a sec!!!!! Just send them my breech plug so that they could machine the threads. Of course, I doubt that they are set up to install the Knight recoil lug. Bummer!!! I still have pics of those groups on photobucket......from that Pacnor. I acquired a Disc Elite from a company that found some in the back....it was up north....I cannot recall the name.....I bet Flounder would recall because I THINK that he purchased an Elite from them. But my Disc elite was very very accurate at 100 yds.
Just ramblin. But thanks for your reply. Yes, with my Savage I was worried more about the bullet blowing up on the shoulder blade. But now, with this solid copper Expander.....and around 16 to1700 fps.....I am worrying about weather it will even expand at all. I am prepared to bump the charge on my MK up to 100 or even 110 with FFG Trip 7. I'll use the search feature and see if it is a DRT bullet for our NON -smokeless guns. I KNOW what that sucker would do with smokeless velocities. It would be plain carnage sometimes.!!!! Buckets of blood!!!! Thanks for your reply Edwardamason!

 

[Edwardamason]

Re: A few questions about bullets and sabots@ Triple 7 velo

You still got that Savage with the Pacnor?

 

[Squeeze]

Re: A few questions about bullets and sabots@ Triple 7 velo

I JUST picked one up, havent even shot it yet, prob wont get around to that one till spring, needs a scope, and Im thinkin maybe a new stock. got the savage 50, and a brand new unfired pac-nor barrels
Bullets? Ive shot deer with a bunch of different bullets, never had a problem finding them with anything. shot a few with powerbelts, lots with all brands of .45 cal pistol bullets. nothing ever went past prob 80 yards, most 40-60. BUT every time was a good shot, right in the boiler room and nothing more than a few last kick/leaps and down, even a few smack, drop hits.. but a typical shot for me is usually less than 75 yards with most around the 30 yard ish mark.

 

[ShawnT]

Re: A few questions about bullets and sabots@ Triple 7 velo

I personally like the 300 grainers in my .50cals. but so far that is just what my rifles liked best. I like the extra weight and I think it hits a little harder. I also like wider meplat bullets for the type of hunting I do. I mostly hunt wooded farmland (30 to 125yds), but I do occasionally get a longer shot when sitting on the bottoms, say up to 200 yds. My old favorite was the Knight 310gn Lead HP for years, it is a very good and tough lead bullet. I have shot the 300gn XTP and had good luck with it too. Last 2 years now I have been shooting the 300gn Speer Deep Curl and really love the consistent expansion I have seen and it hits good and hard. I am not a fan of pointy bullets in the ml, but mostly that is just because most of my shots are close range (30 to 125 yds) and just prefer the wider points of the bullets like the XTP and Deep Curl. I can see using the pointy bullets more if you are shooting longer ranges than me. Another bullet I used a few times with very good results was the 300gn Swift A-Frame. I have taken deer with it and it also was used on the 425lb Bear in my avatar. The Swift is an expensive bullet, but it was sold by Knight at one time and I was picking them up for a song, just prior to that bear hunt, as they were closing them out at Gander Mountain stores. I still have a couple boxes.

 

[WV Hunter]

Re: A few questions about bullets and sabots@ Triple 7 velo

For me, other than a maxi ball and maxi hunters many moons ago, the only bullets I've actually shot deer with were:

Factory Knight Jacketed HP's 260gr - killed about 15-20 with them. Very few went farther than 50yds, none ever more than 75. Several bang flops. Never lost one ever.

I did some bullet testing a year ago spring for my son's science project and ended up deciding to change.
Last fall I started shooting Speer Deep Curls, 240gr (.429). One killed last year, did some major damage - albeit only 30yds away.

I have shot other bullets from my guns...but these have been my hunting rounds. Always over Pyrodex RS.

 

[JHM]

Re: A few questions about bullets and sabots@ Triple 7 velo

With out question my favorite deer bullet is a Barnes Original .458 300 grain in an orange MMP sabot. I have anchored a lot of deer with the BO's. There also very easy to get to shot well.

 

[kevinbrian]

Re: A few questions about bullets and sabots@ Triple 7 velo

You still got that Savage with the Pacnor?

Oh how I wish I did!!!! And it was on a thumbhole Laminate stock. Man what a shooter. No exaggeration when I tell about the terrific long range groups with that fine piece!!! (No exaggeration anyway). But...no.....I sold it a while back to a feller who loves it. I don't blame him. They must have spent some extra time hand-lapping mine. There were ZERO machine marks. When you pushed a bullet down.....it was like a silky ride on a cloud. But with moderate, pressure building, resistance. PERFECT!!!! My MK kind of reminds me of it. LOL!!!!!!!!! Of course....I'm partial to my laminate MK. We were seperated by a couple of years, or one, or I forgot how many......but I am SO glad to have it back. I have treated it to a full action re-bed. It just sits so solidly and wonderfully in the bed I made for it. Just before I stuck it in the wet acra-glas......I said: "Okay little feller......time for beddie-bye."......LOL!!!!!! Not really!!!!! (well, maybe to myself) ROTFLing!!!!!
Hey guys....thanks for your feedback about bullets and terminal (killing) performance. You know....I like to here, after the shot, and sometimes a quick death run.....brush crashing and crashing and then gradually, but quickly growing quiet. And I REALLY like it when the brush that was crashed is not too far from the vehicle. I have yet to get me one of them new-fangled jobs whats got four wheels and a motor. "Four-wheelers"....I think they call em.
Good weather tomorrow!!!! If I can find someone to sit at the house (and call 911 if anything happens) I am going and burn the barrel off of this MK. It's what it wants!!!!!

 

[fliowa]

Re: A few questions about bullets and sabots@ Triple 7 velo

http://www.hodgdon.com/ml-warning.html

Click on the above web site. Check the box that you read the warning. Then click on the rectangular box that reads GET MUZZLELOADING DATA.

enjoy!

 

[kevinbrian]

Re: A few questions about bullets and sabots@ Triple 7 velo

Wow!!!!! Thanks Fliowa!!!!! You know, I see that there is not tha much difference between FFg and FFFg in 80 or 100 grain doses of Triple Seven. I found that tho be startlingly eye opening. Just roughly 50 fps to 60 fps (average) added veloctity when comparing 80 grains of FFFg to 80 grains of FFg. It appears that actually, one is better off shooting with the FFg!!!!

 

[Edwardamason]

Re: A few questions about bullets and sabots@ Triple 7 velo

http://www.hodgdon.com/ml-warning.html

Click on the above web site. Check the box that you read the warning. Then click on the rectangular box that reads GET MUZZLELOADING DATA.

enjoy!

That should be required reading for anyone including the casual hunter that does nothing more than dials in and hunts,

Something to keep in mind these charts are nothing more than Pirates Of The Carribian. If you don't follow the movie They are "Guidelines" to follow. Each MZ's are going to shoot loads at different FPS. Rarley will this data be spot on. It will be in the neighbor hood yes but spot on no. I have seen deviations as much as 200 FPS with respective barrel lengths given depending on the make model and barrel harmonics and bullet/sabot fit. Ive even seen two respective barrels give two different chronagraph readings with the same load. Example would be two stock REmington 700 ML both with 24 inch barrels both shooting the same load. Both giving different Chronagraph readings. Probably had more to do with the sabot/bullet to barrel fit more so than anything.

Lessons learned over the years.

 

[Edwardamason]

Re: A few questions about bullets and sabots@ Triple 7 velo

Wow!!!!! Thanks Fliowa!!!!! You know, I see that there is not tha much difference between FFg and FFFg in 80 or 100 grain doses of Triple Seven. I found that tho be startlingly eye opening. Just roughly 50 fps to 60 fps (average) added veloctity when comparing 80 grains of FFFg to 80 grains of FFg. It appears that actually, one is better off shooting with the FFg!!!!

As a general rule of thumb FFG is a good rifle powder and FFFg is a good pistol powder. Thats not to say that good things cannot be done with FFFG in a rifle. Many a great load have been worked up with FFFG over the years.

But all in all I would say FFG has been used more by riflemen over the years thand FFFG.

 

[Edwardamason]

Re: A few questions about bullets and sabots@ Triple 7 velo

It should also be noted that in bigger bore MZ's FFFg can really be a plus. You generally find flintlock shooters shooting 69 and 72 cal muskets shooting fffg. Many use FFFG in the pan as well as the main charge because its quicker and easier to ignight than FFG because it is finer. sort of a dual pourpose powder. FFFFG is still the preffered pan powder by many flintlock shooters because it will increase the lock time or "flash" time. Or at least the percived flash time.

FFFg shooters should reduce the main charge by about 15% because FFFG tends to build more pressure than FFG. I have some old data compiled on that somewhere at the house by the Montana Barrel company back in the 70's. Its a pretty lenghty read but interesting.

 

[kevinbrian]

Re: A few questions about bullets and sabots@ Triple 7 velo

Thank Edwardamason and others!!!!