45 encore 1:20

[45 caliber]

First off all I'd like to say a big hello to everyone on this forum. This is a great place with a wealth of knowledge. I am having a hard time taming my 45 Encore with a 1:20 barrel. I had given up on it about five years ago. Reading on the Internet and finding guys having success with 1:20 and smokeless has encouraged me to try again. My first year with the gun I shot 2 1/4 inch groups with 150 grains of pyrodex and 240 grain pr qt40 in a brown knight sabot. I also had the same grouping with 175gr. Red Hots with same powder charge. The next few years I was shooting 100gr. Pyrodex and 200gr. Shockwave with green sabot. It shot ok, but never recorded the group size. At the current time my best groups have been with 85grs. 777 3f and 200 Shockwave groups are still 2 1/4. I have shot the Shockwave bullets with green Tc sabot, tan mmp, blue smooth Harvester and cr. The Harvesters are the only ones that have flowered, the rest lose one or two pedestals all the time. The gun groups 2 shits tight and then sends the 3rd, 4 to 5 inches from the other 2. I have to clean he barrel between shits, if not when loading the bullet it seems to skip and chatter down the barrel. I have been thinking of changing the powder to the 209 Black Horn to see if it helps. I am also thinking of replacing the Breech Plug with a new one as the current one is 10 years old and I've tried the Pyrodex loads again and don't seem as accurate as they were in the beginning. The primers that I am currently using with the 777 are Winchester 777 primers and are making a big mess in the breech area. Does anyone have any suggestions/solutions that may help me???

 

[JStanley]

The gun groups 2 shits tight and then sends the 3rd, 4 to 5 inches from the other 2. I have to clean he barrel between shits, if not when loading the bullet it seems to skip and chatter down the barrel. Does anyone have any suggestions/solutions that may help me???

Boy, that can be real inconvenient at the range! :lol: :lol: :lol: oke:

Just kidding! I've never shot saboted bullets in my two .45's so I can't comment there but I do know that the faster the twist the better a long bullet will be stabilized. Mine shoot long, heavy conicals extremely well. Bullets like the Bullshop 488gr or the Noexcuse 460 & 385 gr.

Some of the guys who shoot sabotless should have some more good suggestions for you.

 

[Semisane]

I always clean between shits. :lol:

Welcome to the MM forum 45 caliber. Lots of good info here (and good guys too, who will poke a little fun now and then).

 

[45 caliber]

Thanks for the warm welcome! To moist patches then a dry one. Man I have to pack some tp for the range.

 

[james 14]

Where are you at in FL? If you're close I have some bullets I'll give you to try since I can't get them to stabilize in my gun. Your 1:20 may get the job done.

How long are you waiting in between shots? I've had the same problem with my 3rd shot when shooting in FL in the summer. You have to let the barrel cool and, even though you don't like it, you have to clean between shots. I, personally, use a spit patch and then a dry patch after each shot. This might be all you need to change...a cool, clean barrel.

I'm no expert and don't have much to back this up but I believe sabots undergo extreme amounts of stress in 1:20 barrels...especially as the barrel heats up...hence my suggestions above.

 

[billyboy]

I had one of the original 45cal 1:20 barrels and never got ANYTHING to shoot better than ~4" @ 100yds. I finally called TC and they told me to send it in to them. They tested it and sent me a new 1:28 twist replacement. No problems since then!

 

[Semisane]

I also suggest you give Pyrodex P at try. It shoots real well in my .45. Also, lose the 777 primers. They are the dirtiest thing I've ever used. Standard CCI 209s are a lot cleaner for me.

 

[JStanley]

I also suggest you give Pyrodex P at try. It shoots real well in my .45.

+1!

I also failed to mention my .45's are 1:20 twist like yours. If you consider the Greenhill formula for rate of twist:

L=150x(caliber in in.)squared/Rate of twist

L=bullet length in inches & rate of twist is the second number in inches, so for this example 20"

Here's what you get for an estimate of optimal bullet length for a given twist rate or vice versa.

L = (150x (.45)x(.45))/20 = 1.5"

Keep in mind, this formula was originally developed for artillery shells but it is useful in small arms as well. Use 150 as a constant for muzzle velocities below 2800 fps and 180 for mv's higher. It gives approximate values to use but nothing beats experimenting yourself. This will tell you what ballpark to start in. For example, the Bullshop 488gr. .451 cal is around 1 1/4" long and shoots very accurately in my White. I tried some shorter bullets and got the same results as you - all over the place. While not a perfect tool, you can get there from here using this formula.

Be blessed.

 

[Underclocked]

To the OP, contact TC and ask for/demand a new barrel. T/C put out a bunch of stainless 1:20 twist barrels that were pure crap (****). You apparently have one of those that is borderline pure crap.

I had one of the pure varieties. It wouldn't keep anything inside a bushel basket at 100 yards. T/C replaced mine with a 1:28 twist barrel and the rumor was the 1:20 twist was at fault. That was nonsense.

I immediately had the QLA section cut off and re-crowned the new barrel. It shot great.

If T/C won't replace your barrel, see if you can trade "down" for a CVA Apex at the same dealer that sold you the Encore.

 

[james 14]

The gun groups 2 shits tight and then sends the 3rd, 4 to 5 inches from the other 2. I have to clean he barrel between shits, if not when loading the bullet it seems to skip and chatter down the barrel.

Reading this again...from my experiences in FL you need to wait at least 5 minutes in between shots. The range I shoot at goes 15 minute intervals between cold sessions and I can barely get in 3 shots. I always take another rifle or two to occupy my time. I had the same problem with a higher twist CVA. It would put two on top of each other and then start jumping all over the target. I still have a thought on a bullet you can try but you'll really need to let the barrel cool.

 

[45 caliber]

James I live in South Florida West Dade County. Well today I replaced my breech plug and also bought some Blackhorn 209. The breech definitely needed to be replaced, because when I compared the two where the primer seats as well as the flash channel is much smaller in the new one. I started at 80grs. of Blackhorn and worked my way to 115. The gun shot a 1/2 inch 3 shot group at 110grs. Then I tried a fourth shot and it shot 2 inches high. Don't know if it was me or not on that fourth shot. I took a picture to show but I can't download from my phone to this sight. I still Swabbed the bore between shots with a spit patch not because of the Blackhorn but my sabot bullet combo will skip and not rotate down the bore even though they are very tight in my bore if it is not fairly clean. The breech area was very clean after twenty shot today after replacing the breech. Thanks to everyone for posting suggestions. Next week I will try to repeat the same group to see if it was for real and not a fluke. The load is 110grs. Blackhorn 200gr. Shockwave in green sabot CCI 209mag. Later Artie

 

[Omega45]

Don't forget to clean your flash channel with a 1/8th drill bit by hand to remove the primer carbon. :wink:

 

[45 caliber]

Omega your post with pictures of the groups you shot with your Encore that I saw on long range hunter is what inspired me try my Encore again. Oh by the way what have you done to them to get such consistent accuracy from them other than the barrel? Where did you get that laminated stock?

 

[Omega45]

Laminated TH stock came from Cabelas. Comes with both rifle and muzzleloader forends for $200. They can also be bought from EA Brown and Stockys Stocks with just the muzzleloader forend for $144.

Mine are 1:28 twist with Encore Bergara barrels (non QRBP) with vent liners installed in the breechplugs by two forum members here. The .45 barrel I aquired new from a good friend which had the QLA cut off and recrowned by Mike Bellm. I have zero experience with a 1:20 twist though.

 

[Omega45]

45 caliber,

Check your messages.

 

[Underclocked]

or, maybe I was wrong about yours. :lol:

 

[mlnewb]

The gun groups 2 shits tight and then sends the 3rd, 4 to 5 inches from the other 2. I have to clean he barrel between shits, if not when loading the bullet it seems to skip and chatter down the barrel.

Reading this again...from my experiences in FL you need to wait at least 5 minutes in between shots. The range I shoot at goes 15 minute intervals between cold sessions and I can barely get in 3 shots. I always take another rifle or two to occupy my time. I had the same problem with a higher twist CVA. It would put two on top of each other and then start jumping all over the target. I still have a thought on a bullet you can try but you'll really need to let the barrel cool.

This sounds exactly like rifles that have stock/barrel issues. (I JUST started a thread about this tonight. hehehe)

The action of your rifle should be a very nice, tight fit with the stock.... the barrel, on the other hand, needs not to touch anything at all. You should be able to take a dollar bill or piece of printer paper and slide it between the stock and barrel.... all the way to the base of the barrel.

Anywhere that stock touches the barrel... it's going to change the point of impact as the temp changes and the barrel flexes under the pressure.

The most common signature of a rifle with this condition...... is having to let it cool significantly before it will shoot a few shots accurately again.

Check your barrel clearance... this is one of the easiest things to fix, usually with a tiny bit of sandpaper or a dremel.

Happy Shooting!

 

[45 caliber]

This is an Encore the ears of the front stock are not touching the frame. My hinge pin is not loose. I thought the forearm and barrel clearance was not an issue on this type of system. Am I wrong? I also have air conditioning tape on both sides of the hinge pin to try to stop any horizontal movement.

 

[james 14]

The gun groups 2 shits tight and then sends the 3rd, 4 to 5 inches from the other 2. I have to clean he barrel between shits, if not when loading the bullet it seems to skip and chatter down the barrel.

Reading this again...from my experiences in FL you need to wait at least 5 minutes in between shots. The range I shoot at goes 15 minute intervals between cold sessions and I can barely get in 3 shots. I always take another rifle or two to occupy my time. I had the same problem with a higher twist CVA. It would put two on top of each other and then start jumping all over the target. I still have a thought on a bullet you can try but you'll really need to let the barrel cool.

This sounds exactly like rifles that have stock/barrel issues. (I JUST started a thread about this tonight. hehehe)

The action of your rifle should be a very nice, tight fit with the stock.... the barrel, on the other hand, needs not to touch anything at all. You should be able to take a dollar bill or piece of printer paper and slide it between the stock and barrel.... all the way to the base of the barrel.

Anywhere that stock touches the barrel... it's going to change the point of impact as the temp changes and the barrel flexes under the pressure.

The most common signature of a rifle with this condition...... is having to let it cool significantly before it will shoot a few shots accurately again.

Check your barrel clearance... this is one of the easiest things to fix, usually with a tiny bit of sandpaper or a dremel.

Happy Shooting!

Both rifles with this problem are free floated. I don't think its as much a problem with my new gun but, then again, I don't let it get hot.

 

[choc-dog]

I had one of the original 45cal 1:20 barrels and never got ANYTHING to shoot better than ~4" @ 100yds. I finally called TC and they told me to send it in to them. They tested it and sent me a new 1:28 twist replacement. No problems since then!

I did the same with 2 T/C .45 Encore barrels. I spent over $250.00 in powder and bullets tryiing to find an acceptable hunting group for the
1/20 twist barrels. I requested a .50 for the third barrel and it shoots
the T/C 200 gr shock wave with 110 gr of BH-209 into 1 1/4 inches.

This bullet is the same bullet used for the .45 Encore.

T/C has only made 2 marketing mistakes the last 8 years, one was the 1/20
twist .45 Encore and the second is the .30TC cartridge.

Chocdog