45-70 GOVT. = .45 ML

[squirrelhawker]

I just read those threads DW provided... very interesting. That was over two years ago.. I wonder if he ever got his going? Like I said, I thought I was in uncharted waters. I might not be the best at it... but I did a search on AOL internet and looked for 45-70 covert to muzzleloader and stuff like that.. Only thing I found was where some guys were converting old military 45-70s to ML's.. installing plugs into the chambers..supposedly back in the 50's or 60's. Oh well...I will post over on the other board and maybe tell about the design I came up with.. looks like I went about it a little differently. This is actually the second style I had made.

 

[squirrelhawker]

Here DW...are you happy?? :lol: :lol:
Now I know why I woke up at 4AM..my ears were burning!! :lol:

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com ... 514&page=1

 

[squirrelhawker]

I once did a similar thing with a 12ga single. I used a 12 hulls to make the breech plug. The extractor was left in place. Several breech plugs were made and changed with each shot for a fresh 209 primer. We shot a .690 patched round ball. Accuracy wasn't great but it worked when we ran out of extra guns. I did get some blow-by because the lower pressure of the pyrodex wouldn't seal the plastic. I think I could have solved the problem by turning an aluminum breech plug with "o" rings like the huntsman but it didn't seem worth the trouble.

Was it legal?...well, I thought so at the time...

mcrik

Yeah....busta told me about the Huntsman push in plug... I had never seen one.. That was the one supposedly killed a guy in an accident. Gun didnt go off... he opened it up... then it did :cry: .
I started thinking about this stuff when I got with some of the guys that have the pac-nor barrels. They are .450 bore....458 groove. rather expensive too...but I did order one. I picked D Daub's brain over the phone as far as setting up the savage bolt gun and he told me about the cut down rifle cases he uses for his rem 700 with LR primers. THENNN.. I also started looking at the H&R handi-rifle.. usually inexpensive for the accuracy you can extract from them. At first, I wanted to make a bP for the 45-70 chamber..have it bored to accept a 5/8" plug.. Got a lot of experience designing those for the huntsman and sidekick. We did one like that...told busta about in a while back in a PM. yeah...seems like a lot of trouble to get a 45 ML..but it has been fun playing with..

 

[DW]

No, I never meant to insinuate anyone copied off the other. I thought it was funny that the same topic appeared on the same day on both boards. I thought since you had talked to DD that maybe it was a joint effort on your parts. Sorry for the confusion, nice job also.

 

[squirrelhawker]

Oh WOW I really LIKE that! That is an awesome rig!

I would like to see some groups shot with it!

The first plug design I tried...shot it last week...didnt group real well.
The sabots were too close to the throat area of the chamber and it seemed they were suffering from it. Made the powder cavity a little smaller/shallower...putting the saboted bullet further up into the rifling.
At 70 yards..could tell groups tightened up.. under 3/4"..and I am out of practice shooting. I will try to shoot more. That was six shots..probably three of those were in one ragged hole. Nothing spectacular at 70 yds...but I think it is promising.

 

[squirrelhawker]

Thanks!

Would also like to see the face of the breech plug, and how far down it's bored out=how long is the flame channel? No problems igniting your powder? Any left-over unburned powder grains after the shot? What is your go-to smokeless powder of choice for that baby?

I got load info from DD on the green board, in a phone conversation about the pac-nor 45's. I started with 55 gr,. H4198. light blue harvester sabot. .400" 200 SST. Supposedly some go up to 63 grs.. I was getting around 2400 with 55. Daub assured me H4198 is the only powder I needed. I will also add, I tried the MMP supplied sabots with the SST's and they were terrible...not sure why...they actually are slightly larger loaded dia. than the harv. Unburned powder?..No this aint trail boss :wink:

 

[squirrelhawker]

No, I never meant to insinuate anyone copied off the other. I thought it was funny that the same topic appeared on the same day on both boards. I thought since you had talked to DD that maybe it was a joint effort on your parts. Sorry for the confusion, nice job also.

I woke up early...wanted to see what everone thought.. saw your post and links..WOW.. my jaw dropped. I found the 2007 date on the post. (As far as the original idea). Talk about taking the wind out of my sails ha ha. I am a member of that forum but never post or rarely look at. Have got load info there though.
I pm'ed a guy on this forum about this project last week and told him to keep it under his hat.. wanted to do a little testing. Never talked to DD about this though. Doesnt sound like "edge" or "rbinar" or whoever was working on this ever really got it going? I should compare notes with them.. I will call DD today and raz him. If I can find that number. Looks like... from the link to a post by Daub, yesterday, RB is going to make these and fit to a barrel for $80? Sounds like a good deal. I have heard good things about his work. Myself nor my buddy planned to sell these plugs... he isnt into guns as much as me.. but he is an exceptional machinist with 30+ yrs exp. I posted on the other board (jokingly) that
we were going to sell these for $79. :lol: However...if anyone wants any specs or what not to make their own..I will assist in any way I can.

 

[squirrelhawker]

No, I never meant to insinuate anyone copied off the other. I thought it was funny that the same topic appeared on the same day on both boards. I thought since you had talked to DD that maybe it was a joint effort on your parts. Sorry for the confusion, nice job also.

That is the problem of not talking face to face... just the way I read it..sorry.. I posted mine in the AM... theirs was posted in the PM.. maybe mine got them out of the closet?? :lol: They obviously had this in the works since 2007? ha ha OH....man , what a funny bunch we are!!
No worries here DW.

 

[squirrelhawker]

I love it, but I know the DNR won't. They will say you can convert it back to a cartridge rifle as easy as removing your breech plug and dropping in a .45-70 cartridge.

How much of a powder cavity do you have on the business end? how many grains by Volume will it hold? Have you noticed any peening on the standing breech from thrust? Just curious, as the chamber is designed for a brass cartridge that not only grabs the walls of the chamber, but is not as hard as the standing breech as well. How hard are the primers to remove?

I would love to have one, but I would think this would need to be custom fitted to each chamber to maintain your almost non-existant blowback. I actually like your other project (you know which one) better, and there would be no problems with the DNR. I know it is not as versatile as this project, but I am not a .45-70 guy anyway.

I wish I had a machinist buddy like you have. I have several breech plug ideas I would love to produce. It is just too cost prohibitive to do the initial set-ups for a possible one-off breech plug, unless you have access to the right equipment and people.

Thanks for sharing. I am still drooling over your other project. :wink:

Spoke with a rep at the Ohio DNR. One must not possess any rifle ammo (ie 45-70 cartridge)
while hunting.. your state may vary, as they do.

 

[vabowhntr]

I was getting excited about this idea, a fast twist .45 20" muzzleloader barrel for my NEF, but then I realize I already have one! I have a rossi mini loader that is a 1:20" twist with a 20" barrel. I bought it for my daughter a year or so ago and have not used it since. It did shoot some very good groups with 200 gr SW and 240 gr PR bullets with 65-70 gr of powder (t7 2f). If I could get a better breech plug for it, it would be a go to for me.

 

[squirrelhawker]

I was getting excited about this idea, a fast twist .45 20" muzzleloader barrel for my NEF, but then I realize I already have one! I have a rossi mini loader that is a 1:20" twist with a 20" barrel. I bought it for my daughter a year or so ago and have not used it since. It did shoot some very good groups with 200 gr SW and 240 gr PR bullets with 65-70 gr of powder (t7 2f). If I could get a better breech plug for it, it would be a go to for me.

what problem/s do you have with the plug?

 

[vabowhntr]

It has very little metal between the powder side, which has a large recess for the powder, and the primer side. The flash hole is quite large as well, which allows for a fair amount of blowback. I have tried the oring trick, but it has not cured it. A plug with a longer/narrower flash hole would make me feel a lot better about shooting full power loads. Currently keeping it under 65 gr or so of t7 2f. Still seems to be accurate and very handy in the woods. With a 240 gr PR bullet it should be good out to 125 yards or so on whitetail deer.

 

[james 14]

Just a thought...could this be done with just about any single shot rifle? Not that you'd want a 223 ML or that you'd be able to find anything suitable to push down the bore...or a ramrod...but just wondering if the concept would work.

 

[squirrelhawker]

Just a thought...could this be done with just about any single shot rifle? Not that you'd want a 223 ML or that you'd be able to find anything suitable to push down the bore...or a ramrod...but just wondering if the concept would work.

In theory it should. I am strictly a sabot guy. There are others that have experience shooting sabotless. Like someone else stated in a different post/thread last week.. the sabot is the weak link in this..a link I want..personally. Also..for deer hunting, most states have a .38 cal minimum for ML'ers. ., I think. I think these guys shooting the .400" 195-200 gr. bullets at a decent speed have a good thing goin. They got me.
I am a believer.

 

[vabowhntr]

I would think a 195 barnes at 2400 fps would be just about perfect!

 

[squirrelhawker]

It has very little metal between the powder side, which has a large recess for the powder, and the primer side. The flash hole is quite large as well, which allows for a fair amount of blowback. I have tried the oring trick, but it has not cured it. A plug with a longer/narrower flash hole would make me feel a lot better about shooting full power loads. Currently keeping it under 65 gr or so of t7 2f. Still seems to be accurate and very handy in the woods. With a 240 gr PR bullet it should be good out to 125 yards or so on whitetail deer.

Might be able to help you out..isnt that gun modeled after the H&R?
Is it a 5/8"-18 thread?

 

[james 14]

Are you wanting the sabot as a pressure release or is it some other reason?
I can understand being slightly nervous the first time I pulled the trigger on such a gun.

Is the reason for inaccuracy with sabots in these fast twist/high speed guns the powder charge blowing it out or the barrel heat causing the sabot to skip the rifling? I've never seen a "failed" sabot when using heavy powder charges so my guess would be the rifling.

 

[squirrelhawker]

Are you wanting the sabot as a pressure release or is it some other reason?
I can understand being slightly nervous the first time I pulled the trigger on such a gun.

Is the reason for inaccuracy with sabots in these fast twist/high speed guns the powder charge blowing it out or the barrel heat causing the sabot to skip the rifling? I've never seen a "failed" sabot when using heavy powder charges so my guess would be the rifling.

My experience with these 45's is very limited. I asked the same question when I was ordering my 45 pac-nor barrel. I was going to pay extra for the tooling to get a 1 in 26" twist...thinking that maybe that the fast 20-22" twist was trashing the sabots. D. Daub (from Dougs forum) shot a 1 in 14" and a 1-in 22" twist and saw no difference in sabot life between the two twists. Lots of these guys shoot great groups with these barrels I am told. Not letting the barrel get too hot seems to be a key thing, I am told. I wonder if anybody has tried cooling the sabots in the fridge and keep in a cooler at the range :lol: Probably get moisture condensation when warmed up?? I have only shot at 2400 fps. I think some of thoses guys are pushing 26-2700. I would personally be happy with a 2500 fps
sub moa gun.

 

[squirrelhawker]

Been busy with a lot of stuff.....finally did some shooting out where I hunt.
Tried several different powder combos and finally settled on 60 grains H4198. I dont have any pics... but the load included the .45 200 SST with the harvester sabot. I averaged 2560 fps out of the 20" barrel. At 100 yds., I had several sub moa groups. It was a little breezy too. Wind finally settled down the last hour of light for some better shooting. Very happy with the way the breechplug is working out. Any future reports should probably be on the smokeless forum.

 

[hakx]

What about just cutting down a an existing 45-70 brass - prime it, and use it in a similar fashion as the .25 ACP conversion as marketed my PRBullet?

It could be argued that it is not a prepared metallic cartridge - just a means to hold the primer (like the disc in a Knight or Huntsman...except brass), and the projectile & powder is still loaded from the muzzlel. A lot less machining.

Just a thought.