Wads and PRB / Great Plains rounds.

[eekjellander]

Are you using wads under bullets with concave bases?

Never has I don't shoot concave bullets ,Plain Base only for me /Ed

 

[Bad Karma]

Are you using wads under bullets with concave bases?

When I was shooting hollow based bullets I used a golf ball sized piece of raw wool. (which my neighbors would gladly supply by the gunny sack!) It seemed to work well. I’ve always used something, wad, wool or vegetable fiber, between powder and projectile. I’ve never seen a decrease in accuracy and most of the time it’s helpful.
I don’t have any hollow based bullets anymore.

 

[WP79Vet]

I tried HGPs with wads at about this time last year in my .50 Renegade. I had just bought the Renegade, which was new-in-the-box and never fired when I received it. Accuracy was pretty poor, but these were the very first loads that I fired, and there were lots of other problems, so I really don't know whether the wads helped or hurt. The loads I tried were unsized, factory lubed HGPs over a factory lubed 1/8 thick .54 wad over 95 grs V of T7-3F, lit off by a CCI #11 magnum. Best accuracy I could do was 4 inch groups at 50 yards.

In the last few weeks I've finally found the time to resume my quest for a good HGP elk load, and I'm making some progress. Big contributors to previous accuracy issues, now resolved, were a poor rifle rest, factory semi-buckhorn sight with my 65 year-old eyes, old powder, loading that required heavy pounding on a short starter due to tight TC barrel, and poor factory lube. Without wads, I've gotten 5 HGPs sized to .501 and lubed with SPG-Idaho (8 oz SPG + 1 oz ALOX + 2.6 oz Stihl Ultra HD 2 cycle oil) over 60 grs W (= about 80 grs V) loads of T7-3F to shoot into a 1.5" group at 50 yards. Next tests will be the same bullets and lube over 70 grs W loads of T7-3F and T7-2F with and without wads. Hope to get that done in the next couple of days. I will post the results.

Before long, then, we should have one more piece of insight into whether wads help when used under HGPs with their concave bases.

 

[chubby ninja]

pardon my iggernance, what is an HGP?

 

[ElDiablo]

pardon my iggernance, what is an HGP?

Hornady Great Plains - an all lead conical bullet

 

[WP79Vet]

Yesterday and today I put in some serious range time continuing the development an elk load for my .50 Renegade which will be legal during Montana's Heritage Muzzle-loader season (sidelocks, caps or flint, loose powder, full-bore pure lead bullets, iron sights). Due to ready availability, I settled on the Hornady Great Plains (HGP) bullet, sized down to .501 so that it loads easily but still tightly enough to stay on the powder in mountain hunting conditions, and Triple 7 (T7) powder. My first two rounds of range work are detailed in these threads on this forum: Range Report: .50 Renegade with sized Hornady Great Plains bullets, and Range Report 2.0: .50 Renegade with sized Hornady Great Plains Bullets.

Using a wad between bullet and powder was suggested by several knowledgeable members of this forum, so yesterday I tried it out. With an HGP sized to .501 and pan-lubed with SPG-Idaho (8 oz SPG, 1 oz ALOX, 2.6 oz Stihl Ultra HD 2 cycle oil), over 70 grs W (measured by weight) of T7-2F, I was able to shoot a group measuring 1 1/2 inches at 50 yards. Measured velocities were between 1379 and 1432 FPS. Keeping everything the same, but adding a 1/8 thick .54 wool wad between bullet and powder, with the wad loaded as IdahoLewis suggested in an earlier thread, the group size for my next 5 shots blew up to 7.0 inches (!), with three of the shots on the margins of the group. Measured velocity range for this group was 1389 - 1425.

To make sure that it wasn't some fluke, I fired 5 more shots with the same bullet over 80 grs W of T7-2F and no wad, and even though it was the very end of a long shooting session, my rifle was heavily fouled, and I was very cold (yesterday's high temp was 25 F with a 10 - 15 mile wind), I was able to put 5 shots in a 2.5 inch group at 50 yards, with a velocity range of 1496 to 1528. Pretty clear, then, that the wad was the critical factor in a dramatic loss of accuracy.

I'm sure that a wad between bullet and powder works for many people with many combinations of bullet and powder, but yesterday a wad between my sized HGPs and the T7 powder I'm using clearly didn't help. Not sure why.... any thoughts?

I will publish a detailed report on my 3d round of load development as soon as I get time to write it up. MTs Heritage Muzzleloader season opened yesterday, and I'm going hunting tomorrow, so I'd best get after packing....

 

[ElDiablo]

adding a 1/8 thick .54 wool wad between bullet and powder, with the wad loaded as IdahoLewis suggested in an earlier thread

What’s that method exactly? Very hard to believe a wool wad would make your 1.5” groups go to 7” at 50 yards. Maybe the wad was getting stuck in the hollow base of the bullet?

Good luck on the hunt!

 

[WP79Vet]

What’s that method exactly? Very hard to believe a wool wad would make your 1.5” groups go to 7” at 50 yards. Maybe the wad was getting stuck in the hollow base of the bullet?

Good luck on the hunt!

Thanks - Just about loaded up for the hunt, and it's starting to snow! Nothing better for finding elk than an inch or two of fresh tracking snow.

Here's the thread in which Lewis posted a video describing his loading sequence. It includes a demonstration of how he loads a wad over powder.
https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/felt-wad-over-powder.39556/#post-357175
I think that felt wads have a propensity to go cockeyed against concave bullet bases, and that's why I get poor accuracy with HGPs and Hornady PA conicals when I use wads. But... maybe I'm doing something wrong, and all thoughts / comments are helpful and appreciated.

Good news: With charges of 85grs W of T7-2F behind my sized HGPs I'm getting velocities around 1540 +/- 17 fps, 5 shot 50 yard groups that are consistently around 2 inches and centered about 1.5 inches high, and very clean powder burns. So.... I'm ready for deer or elk out to ranges of 125 yards or so.

 

[Renegadehunter]

Thanks - Just about loaded up for the hunt, and it's starting to snow! Nothing better for finding elk than an inch or two of fresh tracking snow.

Here's the thread in which Lewis posted a video describing his loading sequence. It includes a demonstration of how he loads a wad over powder.
https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/felt-wad-over-powder.39556/#post-357175
I think that felt wads have a propensity to go cockeyed against concave bullet bases, and that's why I get poor accuracy with HGPs and Hornady PA conicals when I use wads. But... maybe I'm doing something wrong, and all thoughts / comments are helpful and appreciated.

Good news: With charges of 85grs W of T7-2F behind my sized HGPs I'm getting velocities around 1540 +/- 17 fps, 5 shot 50 yard groups that are consistently around 2 inches and centered about 1.5 inches high, and very clean powder burns. So.... I'm ready for deer or elk out to ranges of 125 yards or so.

Idaholewis did not use hollow base bullets. He used flat base bullets. A wad between powder and a flat base bullet really helps to protect the base of the bullet, which is what "steers" the bullet. Lew also noted that lead fouling was reduced from using a wad vs. not using one. Without a wad he surmised that ignition was melting the base of the bullet edges slightly, which would contribute lead to the bore and cause the bullet to lose some of its "steering" capability. Makes sense.

A hollow based bullet, like your Hornady GPB's, is designed differently. The base of the bullet is supposed to flare out upon ignition, creating a tight fit to the bore that won't allow any gases to get past it.
Gas leakage around the projectile is an accuracy killer, so a wad being added with a hollow base bullet has the potential to keep the base from expanding. I think that adding the wad protected the ignition explosion from being able to reliably flare out the GPB bases, which means they weren't sealing to the bore well and gases were able to blow past it during its ride down the bore. Perhaps it was even stripping the rifling too without the base being expanded to fill the grooves better?

At any rate, your testing shows that no wad is working better for your load, so that's all that matters. Best of luck in filling that elk tag. I have been on a long dry spell of putting an elk in the freezer, I always archery hunt the rut every year. I managed to get one this year and have been greatly enjoying having elk meat in the freezer again, it is outstanding table fare.

 

[Bad Karma]

This is true.”Idaholewis did not use hollow base bullets. He used flat base bullets. A wad between powder and a flat base bullet really helps to protect the base of the bullet, which is what "steers" the bullet. Lew also noted that lead fouling was reduced from using a wad vs. not using one. Without a wad he surmised that ignition was melting the base of the bullet edges slightly, which would contribute lead to the bore and cause the bullet to lose some of its "steering" capability. Makes sense.”

Although I’ve had very good results using a small ball of raw wool under the HGP and the Hornady PA bullet in round ball rifles. Same function as the wad but I think work better with the hollow base.

 

[WP79Vet]

Idaholewis did not use hollow base bullets. He used flat base bullets. A wad between powder and a flat base bullet really helps to protect the base of the bullet, which is what "steers" the bullet. Lew also noted that lead fouling was reduced from using a wad vs. not using one. Without a wad he surmised that ignition was melting the base of the bullet edges slightly, which would contribute lead to the bore and cause the bullet to lose some of its "steering" capability. Makes sense.

A hollow based bullet, like your Hornady GPB's, is designed differently. The base of the bullet is supposed to flare out upon ignition, creating a tight fit to the bore that won't allow any gases to get past it.
Gas leakage around the projectile is an accuracy killer, so a wad being added with a hollow base bullet has the potential to keep the base from expanding. I think that adding the wad protected the ignition explosion from being able to reliably flare out the GPB bases, which means they weren't sealing to the bore well and gases were able to blow past it during its ride down the bore. Perhaps it was even stripping the rifling too without the base being expanded to fill the grooves better?

At any rate, your testing shows that no wad is working better for your load, so that's all that matters. Best of luck in filling that elk tag. I have been on a long dry spell of putting an elk in the freezer, I always archery hunt the rut every year. I managed to get one this year and have been greatly enjoying having elk meat in the freezer again, it is outstanding table fare.

Congratulations on your elk!!