Range Report: .50 Renegade with sized Hornady Great Plains bullets

[WP79Vet]

Last spring I bought a Hankins adjustable sizer die, and sized some .50 caliber HGPs down to .501 in hope of making the bullets easier to load and more accurate in my TC Renegade. At that diameter, they can be started in my Renegade with heavy thumb pressure, and seating takes enough ramrod pressure that I'm sure the bullets won't move off the powder under mountain hunting conditions. Haven't had a chance to shoot any until yesterday afternoon and again this afternoon. Here are the results:

Because Montana's Heritage ML elk season starts on 9 December and is only open until 17 December, time is short, so I started yesterday afternoon with the load I HOPED would shoot well: Sized HGP over 92 grains of T7 3F (grains volume from my TC U-View powder measure - which is 70 grains when weighed in my RCBS beam scale. I weighed all of the charges prior to shooting.), no wad, HGPs pan-lubed with SPG. First shot hit a 2 inch bullseye at 50 yards. Next 5 were all over the place, including 2 that completely missed the 18" x 18" target paper(!) - despite shooting over a very solid bench arrangement. I swabbed with Hornady One-Shot ML cleaner (HOS) between shots, and saw lots of mostly small lead flecks on the patch, and some lead flecks that were bigger. Concluded that to miss that badly, the HGPs had to be deforming/disintegrating pretty badly, and leaving lots of leading in the barrel. Cleaned my rifle thoroughly, and put it through an abbreviated Lee Shaver leading removal treatment. Last spring I put my Renegade barrel through the full Lee Shaver barrel break-in procedure, which is essentially just an extension of the Lee's leading removal procedure. IdahoLewis posted a fairly detailed description of it. Did some research into what powders and charges others are using with HGPs, and concluded that 92 grains (V) of T7 3F is way too hot, which is why I saw leading and bullet issues.

This afternoon, despite a high temp of 24 F and damp conditions which made accurate shooting a bit difficult, I got back out there.

Started with same bullets over 50 grains W (67 gr V) of T7 3F. At 50 yards 5 of 6 shots went into a rectangular group 1 1/8" high by 2 1/4 wide, while 1 shot was a called flier that landed an inch higher. Swabbed with HOS after every shot. First shot had a few tiny flecks of lead, none on remaining shots. Horizontal spread is probably due to the fact that I have a fairly wide hunting aperture (.155) in my Skinner peep, which is mounted close to my eye, and as I was shooting, I frequently found that I was looking through the aperture offcenter along the horizontal axis. I suspect that the horizontal spread can be tightened up with improved shooting technique and/or a smaller aperture. My bare fingers were very cold while I was shooting, which made trigger control a challenge. The called flier was a shot that went off when I really didn't intend it to, probably because I was having trouble knowing how hard I was pulling on the trigger.

Next I fired six of the same bullets over 60 grains W (80 gr V) of T7 3F. At 50 yards 4 of these 6 shots went into a rectangular group 2 3/4" W x 1 1/8" high, while 2 were called fliers that landed about 2 inches higher. After every shot there were at least a few tiny flecks of lead on the patch, but not near as many as with 70 gr (W) loads, and it didn't seem to be affecting accuracy. Same cold shooting conditions issues probably led to the two called fliers. So... it seems that the sized HGPs shot just about as well with 60 gr (W) of T7 3F as they did with 50 gr (W) of T7 3F, but that should be confirmed under more favorable shooting conditions. The increased number of lead flecks is also a bit troubling.

Here are some things that I have questions about, and am hoping that others have relevant experience to share. Because time to explore all the parameters between now and elk season is very limited, all experience that you can share will be very helpful!

1. What are the pros and cons of swabbing after every shot? Could this be reducing my accuracy?

2. Are the small number of tiny lead flecks that I saw after every shot when using 60 gr (w) charges a problem? If so, what might be causing it, and are there ways of solving it?

3. I can probably size down to .5005 or so and get even easier loading while maintaining enough friction between bullet and barrel to hold the bullets on the powder while climbing around in elk country. Is this likely to help with leading or accuracy?

4. Will using wads help with accuracy or leading? If some improvement seems likely, I have some 1/8 thick lubed wads in both .50 and .54 to try. A wad under a bullet with a concave base has never made much sense to me because it seems unlikely that the wad would end up perfectly centered - going down or coming out, but some people report good luck with it. What are your experiences?

5. What are your thoughts on why was accuracy so poor with the 70 gr. (w) charges?

Any other thoughts or observations?

We are supposed to have some warmer afternoon in the next week, so I can probably fit in a couple more shooting sessions before elk season.

Thanks!

 

[snapbang]

1. I swab between shots no matter what I shoot. Throw a patch in the mouth, run it up and down several times, then a fresh dry patch several times, then reload.

2. I wont answer this. There are those here with more experience in that matter.

3. same as number 2.

4. A wad between the bullet and powder will very likely improve accuracy and may help with those flakes.

5. 70 grains (w) is plenty of powder. Again, the wad may help this.

Shoot some wads and all these problems could go away.

This is my opinion and I admit there are those here with much, much more experience in this area. So no offense taken if someone needs to correct me.

 

[WP79Vet]

1. I swab between shots no matter what I shoot. Throw a patch in the mouth, run it up and down several times, then a fresh dry patch several times, then reload.

2. I wont answer this. There are those here with more experience in that matter.

3. same as number 2.

4. A wad between the bullet and powder will very likely improve accuracy and may help with those flakes.

5. 70 grains (w) is plenty of powder. Again, the wad may help this.

Shoot some wads and all these problems could go away.

This is my opinion and I admit there are those here with much, much more experience in this area. So no offense taken if someone needs to correct me.

Thanks Snapbang. Very helpful response.

 

[ElDiablo]

I agree with everything @snapbang wrote.

Interesting that you’re using HOS to swab - I don’t ever recall reading of anyone using it that way. (I do use it but more as a rust preventative.) it’s a great idea to swab between shots with 777 - I use a brass brush or a water-based “solvent” like spit or windex.

I think a wad is also a great idea.

 

[edmehlig]

You may want to try 80gr of either Swiss 2F or 777-2F with a 54 cal Wad. We know that was another members favorite load who is no longer a member here.

 

[box_blaster]

I realize this is the sidelock area but I'll throw in $.02 regarding the wad question. I tried a cutoff sabot base under unsized hgp's in a cva wolf w/bh209 & it didn't make a bit of difference in accuracy or fouling best I could tell.

 

[WP79Vet]

You may want to try 80gr of either Swiss 2F or 777-2F with a 54 cal Wad. We know that was another members favorite load who is no longer a member here.

Thanks for an interesting suggestion. My impression is that T7 3F burns faster and hotter than other powders, so maybe a slower burning powder and a wad will help with leading and deformation of the HGPs at higher charges. Fairly easy for me to test in the time available.

 

[Bad Karma]

You may want to try 80gr of either Swiss 2F or 777-2F with a 54 cal Wad. We know that was another members favorite load who is no longer a member here.

Along those lines, I’ve been using the aforementioned person’s modified SPG lube recipe for a few years now and it’s greatly reduced or eliminated leading from some barrels tha always leaded badly. I’m also convinced that an oversized wad, either wool or veggie fiber, is a necessity under pure lead conical bullets.

 

[snapbang]

54 cal wad in a 50?????
Good to know

 

[WP79Vet]

Along those lines, I’ve been using the aforementioned person’s modified SPG lube recipe for a few years now and it’s greatly reduced or eliminated leading from some barrels tha always leaded badly. I’m also convinced that an oversized wad, either wool or veggie fiber, is a necessity under pure lead conical bullets.

Looking like some things I need to try are:

1. Size another 40 HGPs. Good thing I bought 10 boxes of HGPs when Natchez had them on sale for $7 and change last spring!

2. Cook up a batch of modified SPG lube and lube the sized HGPs. The recipe is still on here, and I have the SPG, ALOX, and Stihl oil. At 24F, the pure SPG was definitely too stiff - seemed that upon loading, much of it was left in a ring of fragments around the muzzle.

3. Get a pound of T7 2F. Readily available in stores here.

4. Put a smaller aperture in my Skinner sight.

5. Shoot various charges of T7 3F with wads and evaluate.

6. Shoot various charges of T7 2F without wads and evaluate

7. If the wads help with the 3F, try various charges of 2F with wads.

Thanks for sharing your insights, everybody!

 

[Bad Karma]

Looking like some things I need to try are:

1. Size another 40 HGPs. Good thing I bought 10 boxes of HGPs when Natchez had them on sale for $7 and change last spring!

2. Cook up a batch of modified SPG lube and lube the sized HGPs. The recipe is still on here, and I have the SPG, ALOX, and Stihl oil. At 24F, the pure SPG was definitely too stiff - seemed that upon loading, much of it was left in a ring of fragments around the muzzle.

3. Get a pound of T7 2F. Readily available in stores here.

4. Put a smaller aperture in my Skinner sight.

5. Shoot various charges of T7 3F with wads and evaluate.

6. Shoot various charges of T7 2F without wads and evaluate

7. If the wads help with the 3F, try various charges of 2F with wads.

Thanks for sharing your insights, everybody!

Lee Shaver has a post on his site about the importance of lube and how it functions in a bp cartridge. Essentially, if the bullet is lying in the bottom of the bore upon ignition, lube will flow in a lopsided manner around the bullet and the lead, expanding as it does under the kick of the powder charge, will also flow in an uneven manner as the bullet begins its journey down range. He’s concerned about MOA accuracy at extreme ranges and in a way, our muzzleloaders have the advantage of a bore sized bullet being pretty well centered at the moment of ignition. I think this is why the lewis bullets as cast from the Accurate Molds shoot so well, sufficient lube and good fit to the bore.

Anyway, Mr. Shaver explains this much more precisely than I can so here he is.

https://www.singleshotexchange.com/there-is-no-magic-bullet/

 

[Renegadehunter]

Hot and quick burning T7 in 3f may be damaging the skirt on the bottom of the GPB's, perhaps that is where the small lead flecks are coming from.
I would also recommend trying 2f. With T7, I'd start at around 70 grains and work up. I'd think somewhere around 80 to 90 grains will show best results. As far as a wad, I don't know. Hornady GPB's have a skirt that is supposed to flair out and seal to the bore when the charge is ignited. I'm not sure if a wad would interfere with that or not. Couldn't hurt to try and see if it works or not though.

I have shot them in my .54 Renegade with good results, at factory sizing. They take a pretty good smack to get into the bore, but by the time they're seated they are moving pretty easily. Easily enough that I had concerns that they might walk up off the powder, but I never caught one that had done so. I used 2f Goex and loaded them right on top of the powder. I did always have some leading in the bore after I'd shot them. I always swabbed between shots. I've always seen better groups from my Renegade, even with a tight fitting patched RB, if I swabbed between shots.

 

[WP79Vet]

Lee Shaver has a post on his site about the importance of lube and how it functions in a bp cartridge. Essentially, if the bullet is lying in the bottom of the bore upon ignition, lube will flow in a lopsided manner around the bullet and the lead, expanding as it does under the kick of the powder charge, will also flow in an uneven manner as the bullet begins its journey down range. He’s concerned about MOA accuracy at extreme ranges and in a way, our muzzleloaders have the advantage of a bore sized bullet being pretty well centered at the moment of ignition. I think this is why the lewis bullets as cast from the Accurate Molds shoot so well, sufficient lube and good fit to the bore.

Anyway, Mr. Shaver explains this much more precisely than I can so here he is.

https://www.singleshotexchange.com/there-is-no-magic-bullet/

Bullet fit, lube, and bullet hardness seem to be what the folks who get great accuracy focus on the most. Thanks for the reference to a really interesting article.

 

[Bad Karma]

Bullet fit, lube, and bullet hardness seem to be what the folks who get great accuracy focus on the most. Thanks for the reference to a really interesting article.

For such a simple pursuit, there are so many moving parts…

 

[snapbang]

For such a simple pursuit, there are so many moving parts…

Isnt that right????

 

[Wilbar]

Just my 2 cents; I agree with these guys, use a wool wad between the powder and bullet allowing a light lube on your bullet. Try that first and stick with 60 gr, if that helps you can increase your load until you lose accuracy or see lead again. Good luck to you

 

[Shorty]

Wpvet79, how do you know what the specs are? I see them in mine also. The more powder i use, the more i see. I always thought that they were specs of unburnt powder not lead…?

 

[Shorty]

Also did you chrono your bullet for velocity. I was under the impression that leading did not occur under so many feet per second. Just my thoughts as its a great learning curve for all. If all else fails, change bullets…

 

[WP79Vet]

Wpvet79, how do you know what the specs are? I see them in mine also. The more powder i use, the more i see. I always thought that they were specs of unburnt powder not lead…?

The specks are pretty small, but they are so shiny they almost have to be some kind of metal. Also, I didn't see them with 50 gr W (weight) charges except just a few after the first 50 gr W charge was fired. Some were present after every 60 gr W charge was fired, and lots were present after every 70 gr W charge - along with some bigger particles which were very clearly lead, and had the same shiny surface as the tiny flecks. So.... because they increased with increasing charge weights, and had the same appearance as the bigger particles, I'm pretty sure that they're lead.

 

[WP79Vet]

Also did you chrono your bullet for velocity. I was under the impression that leading did not occur under so many feet per second. Just my thoughts as its a great learning curve for all. If all else fails, change bullets…

Haven't chronographed yet. That's on the plate for my next shooting session - to assess potential for leading as well as lethality.

For MT's Heritage ML season, we have to use full bore, pure-lead bullets with no skirts, sabots, plastic tips, etc. I'll be hunting elk as well as deer, so I'd really prefer stoutly loaded conicals over round balls, although my son killed a huge-bodied Roosevelt Elk (a Roosevelt bull can weigh up to 1100 lbs - same as a Shiras moose(!) - versus 700 lbs for a big Rocky Mountain bull) on WA's Olympic Peninsula with a .50 caliber round ball. Not many pure lead conicals are commercially available, so for this year, I'm gonna do the best I can with the HGPs. For next year, I may start playing around with custom cast bullets, or even start casting bullets myself.

The good news is that sized HGPs over charges of T7 3F up to 60 grs W, seem to be giving accuracy that's acceptable for hunting, and the leading didn't seem to be bad enough to have any effect on accuracy, at least for 6 shots. 60 grs W of T7 3F is 80 grs (Volume - V), and because T7 is more energetic than black powder, that's probably equivalent to around a 90 gr V load of black powder: That's a fairly stout load. So... based on what others seem to be getting with their nominal 385 grain bullet loads (Confederate Rifleman reports 1350 fps with 70 grs V of Swiss and Lyman Great Plains bullets that he casts himself, for example), I'm guessing that I'm getting muzzle velocities of at least 1400 fps with 60 grs W of T7 3F, and probably a bit more. When I chronograph that load, I may decide that 60 grs of T7 3F is stout enough. [My shoulder's telling me that this load is plenty stout . ] So... even if I can't make any progress on the leading issue or push charges up above 60 grs W of T7 3F in the time available, a sized HGP over 60 grs W of T7 3F should be adequate for elk - assuming that accuracy is still OK when I shoot it at 100 yards.

Nevertheless, during the next week I'm gonna try the things I mentioned above - improved lube, wads, slower burning T7 2F, a smaller peep aperture - to see if I can get better accuracy, leading, or muzzle velocity before I throw in the towel and declare the current sized HGP over 60 grs W of T7 3F to be good enough for now.