Questions/dilemmas re hunting with BH209

[magnus]

Hi,

I'm in the process of moving from T7 to BH209. I have 2 T/C's ....and Omega and a Encore 209x50. They both seem to like the same load of BLACKHORN .....77gW / 110gV. Groups approx 1.5" @100yds with TC Shockwave 250gr & the yellow EZ glide sabots. Plan to do some further load work with other bullets, sabots, powder weights, etc, in the off season. Absolutely love the immediate advantages over T7 incl no black cloud, no need to clean between shots, etc.

But, I'm trying to figure out best plan for hunting with regards to a couple of areas and am curious what others more experienced would recommend:

1. I have definitely noticed in my shooting that after 10-12 shots, I start getting flyers and groups open up. Not sure yet exactly where that breakpoint is? 5, 8, 10 shots? But when I do clean the barrel & BP, everything comes right back to where it should be. Does this sound typical?

2. I have a late season ML tag in Iowa. Temps are expected to be between about 0 to 25F. If I load the gun but don't shoot it, would most of you just leave it loaded until the next day? How about days beyond that? I'm wondering how long I can go with leaving it loaded and still be confident it'll be "on" when it comes time for a shot. Also, would you leave it in outside temps or bring into a semi-heated building. My concern being condensation from the temp change causing powder to get damp.

Thanks for any thoughts......


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[Squeeze]

were you shooting in rapid succesion? It could just be from making the barrel hot, amd the hot barrel loosing consistency. If you dont shoot, its fine for the load to sit for a while, especially BH. My hunting gun has a load of BH in it now for about 2 weeks. BH can take a bit of moisture and still fire. here is an article about a guy trying to add moisture to test the point of failure ( I take all these with a grain of salt, but some info is pretty good) http://www.namlhunt.com/blackhorn209-3.html

 

[hawgslayer]

magnus,
Welcome to the forum :!: :!: :!:
Lets talk about your 2nd question. I was concerned with the same question a while back but now I don't give it a second thought. I shoot a CVA V2 or my MR. I've shot them over the years and never had a problem............with moisture.
This past season opening day for me was 9*s. I'm in the blind from dark to dark. When I'm done for the day I remove the Fiocchi Primer and put the rifle in the case and I return to my room. As soon as I get there I remove the rifle and stand it in the corner. The room is always 72*s. Next morning I re seat the bullet to make sure it hasn't worked it's was up the barrel a liitle bit and when I get back in the blind I put the primer in. Did it this way for the last few years and never had a problem. This year I have taken 2 deer and never thought about moisture again.
Can't really answer your 1st question because I don't shoot those rifles.

Ray............... :yeah:

 

[lechwe]

I have gotten really lazy with BH209. I have left it loaded in my truck for a month is wet weather with wildly changing temps and it fires like it was just freshly loaded. Amazing stuff.

Good luck

 

[LarryBud]

Question #2 First: I would have no worry with BH 209 touching off in the cold ( I've shot a sub zero ). I would leave the gun in the truck or shed or somewhere near outside temps. I always leave mine in the truck.

Question #1: I would be more concerned with the first shot being out of the group. Do a search on " First Shot Flyers " to catch up on the threads. You may need to develop some kind of partial fouling system to get the first shot on the money.

 

[d.winsor]

One thing you can do without leaving your gun outside is to take some thin plastic, saran wrap, Baggie, etc., Before you come into the house on a cold night wrap the plastic around the barrel and put a rubber band on it. Then break open your gun and use a fired primer and a couple thin sheets of plastic. Put the primer into the plastic and then put the primer and plastic into the breech plug. Cut off the excess plastic and close the gun.
As your gun warms up the air in the gun will heat up also causing the humidity in the cold air to drop, this will eliminate you having any condensation in your barrel.

As far as how long to leave the powder in it will depend on the weather, if it rains I will change the load more often. If it doesn't rain I'll leave my gun loaded for 4 or 5 days, after that I change the load.

The above procedure for a cold barrel also works in the rain, without the plastic on the primer.

If you do have first shot fliers, clean your bore between shots and adjust your optics or sights to cleaning between shots. For the solvent I use Hoppe's elite gun cleaner, they say it cleans down to the pours of the metal. For the lubricant I use Slip 2000 gun cleaner, It is a CLP and is good from -130 to 1250 deg F. It will not react with any black powder powders including BH 209. I cleans all the normal fouling plus will get the plastic off if any. It lubricates down to the pours of the metal. To read more go the Slip2000.com

When using the Chemicals, use them sparingly. To clean between each shot use a patch of hoppe's, both sides. Next use a dry patch, save this patch. Next use a patch of Slip 2000 gun cleaner, Then turn over the patch you saved and run it in the bore, You are ready to load and shot. Takes longer to type the procedure than to do it. Guaranteed no first shot fliers. Your groups will be noticeably tighter also, cleaning between shots will also help your barrel cool.

Correction Lee 9 had a good point about shooting BH 209, personally I like to run a drill bit in my flash channel every 3 to 6 shots. Find a drill bit that fits your breech plug and put electrical tape on the shank until you can grip it, then when using it do so with finger pressure only, you don't want to damage the flash hole. The T/C should use a 1/8" drill bit, you could start there, you don't have to remove your BP to do this.

 

[Lee 9]

#1 your fliers have two common potential problems, Carbon up the BP between the primer seat and the touch hole, the other is the barrel getting hot and softening the plastic sabot.
Both have easy solutions for the carbon I use a drill that fits the BP every 8 shots for the barrel heat you have to space out your shots when I go to the range I take 3 to 5 guns and shoot then one at a time letting the first one cool while I load and shoot the others .

 

[magnus]

If you use take the drill bit to your BP every 8 shots, I assume you're removing the plug from the gun? Do you soak it, etc... or just spin it dry, blow it out, re-insert, and then continue shooting?

#1 your fliers have two common potential problems, Carbon up the BP between the primer seat and the touch hole, the other is the barrel getting hot and softening the plastic sabot.
Both have easy solutions for the carbon I use a drill that fits the BP every 8 shots for the barrel heat you have to space out your shots when I go to the range I take 3 to 5 guns and shoot then one at a time letting the first one cool while I load and shoot the others .

 

[magnus]

Good suggestions and info. Thanks.

 

[Lee 9]

If you use take the drill bit to your BP every 8 shots, I assume you're removing the plug from the gun? Do you soak it, etc... or just spin it dry, blow it out, re-insert, and then continue shooting?

#1 your fliers have two common potential problems, Carbon up the BP between the primer seat and the touch hole, the other is the barrel getting hot and softening the plastic sabot.
Both have easy solutions for the carbon I use a drill that fits the BP every 8 shots for the barrel heat you have to space out your shots when I go to the range I take 3 to 5 guns and shoot then one at a time letting the first one cool while I load and shoot the others .

I use break action guns and do not need to remove the BP, if I had a bolt action gun I would remove the bolt and use a drill rod with a drill welded on the end and put a T handle on the other end.

 

[magnus]

With these quick cleanings of the BP, do you have concerns that the carbon filings made loose by the drill bit action on the wider primer-end opening will clog up the smaller touch hole?

 

[sg.ellis2]

dilemmas re hunting with BH209

I'm trying to figure out best plan for hunting with regards to a couple of areas:

1. I have definitely noticed in my shooting that after 10-12 shots, I start getting flyers and groups open up. But when I do clean the barrel & BP, everything comes right back to where it should be. Does this sound typical?

2. I have a late season ML tag in Iowa. Temps are expected to be between about 0 to 25F. I'm wondering how long I can go with leaving it loaded and still be confident it'll be "on" when it comes time for a shot. Also, would you leave it in outside temps or bring into a semi-heated building. My concern being condensation.

Thanks for any thoughts......


Read more: http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com ... z3NhamT5fo

1. What type of hunting are you shooting a bullet projectile that requires repeated strings of greater than 10-12 shots? Varmint shooting on a prairie dog town would require a ton of shots, but that's varmint shooting, and you'd not be doing that with a muzzle-loader too often if ever. I'm having a difficult time understanding your dozen shot string hunting scenario for it to be a dilemma. Even if talking center-fire, some ultra light weight rifles having thin contours, will shoot great groups for two to three repeated shots, but then open up as the barrel heats. Could be your barrel is getting warm enough to effect POI, could be your dozen shot string is creating enough deposits within the barrel ID to effect POI, it could be the deposits within the breech plug has reached a point it effects ignition and the resulting POI, or it could be any combination of above. You can easily rule out each:

a. walk away from the rifle for a long period of time, and then re-shoot groups when it is cold.
b. swab the barrel but leave the breech plug alone.
c. clean the breech plug but leave the barrel id alone.

Regardless your findings on any or all the above, unless you have a need to shoot a dozen shot string while hunting, I'd not worry if you'll be hunting game animals and only taking a few shots at most.

2. Blackhorn 209 is pretty good stuff in its ability to resist breaking down from moisture. It appears to dry out well once wet. But, it only takes a few drops of moisture within your load to effect ignition, and when talking a temp swing from a heated building down to below zero, it is very easy for a muzzle-load barrel to sweat more than a few drops of moisture. If the rifle is kept within a range of temps and conditions that you are not seeing moisture and condensation, then you may very well be fine. If you are seeing a wide enough temp swing and wet conditions where condensation develops, then you may wish to run a fresh charge. When I do this, I like to make use of the old charge for practice and to test function.

Good Luck

 

[magnus]

dilemmas re hunting with BH209
1. What type of hunting are you shooting a bullet projectile that requires repeated strings of greater than 10-12 shots? Varmint shooting on a prairie dog town would require a ton of shots, but that's varmint shooting, and you'd not be doing that with a muzzle-loader too often if ever. I'm having a difficult time understanding your dozen shot string hunting scenario for it to be a dilemma. Even if talking center-fire, some ultra light weight rifles having thin contours, will shoot great groups for two to three repeated shots, but then open up as the barrel heats. Could be your barrel is getting warm enough to effect POI, could be your dozen shot string is creating enough deposits within the barrel ID to effect POI, it could be the deposits within the breech plug has reached a point it effects ignition and the resulting POI, or it could be any combination of above. You can easily rule out each:

a. walk away from the rifle for a long period of time, and then re-shoot groups when it is cold.
b. swab the barrel but leave the breech plug alone.
c. clean the breech plug but leave the barrel id alone.

Regardless your findings on any or all the above, unless you have a need to shoot a dozen shot string while hunting, I'd not worry if you'll be hunting game animals and only taking a few shots at most.

Did not mean to imply that I needed to fire 10-12 consecutive shots while hunting. I was referring to consecutive shots while practicing.....even over a series of hours. However, based upon info/advice here, things are now much improved. Have begun to swab between every shot with both sides of patch well dampened with Hoppes, followed by 2 dry patches. Every five shots, am using 1/8" drill bit on BP. Also switched to Barnes T-EZ 290gr. Same powder load of BH209, 77gr weighed.
Results are consistent <MOA groups at 100yds.

Headed out to the blind shortly!!

Thanks again for the advice. Great forum here on MM! :yeah:

 

[ShawnT]

dilemmas re hunting with BH209
1. What type of hunting are you shooting a bullet projectile that requires repeated strings of greater than 10-12 shots? Varmint shooting on a prairie dog town would require a ton of shots, but that's varmint shooting, and you'd not be doing that with a muzzle-loader too often if ever. I'm having a difficult time understanding your dozen shot string hunting scenario for it to be a dilemma. Even if talking center-fire, some ultra light weight rifles having thin contours, will shoot great groups for two to three repeated shots, but then open up as the barrel heats. Could be your barrel is getting warm enough to effect POI, could be your dozen shot string is creating enough deposits within the barrel ID to effect POI, it could be the deposits within the breech plug has reached a point it effects ignition and the resulting POI, or it could be any combination of above. You can easily rule out each:

a. walk away from the rifle for a long period of time, and then re-shoot groups when it is cold.
b. swab the barrel but leave the breech plug alone.
c. clean the breech plug but leave the barrel id alone.

Regardless your findings on any or all the above, unless you have a need to shoot a dozen shot string while hunting, I'd not worry if you'll be hunting game animals and only taking a few shots at most.

Did not mean to imply that I needed to fire 10-12 consecutive shots while hunting. I was referring to consecutive shots while practicing.....even over a series of hours. However, based upon info/advice here, things are now much improved. Have begun to swab between every shot with both sides of patch well dampened with Hoppes, followed by 2 dry patches. Every five shots, am using 1/8" drill bit on BP. Also switched to Barnes T-EZ 290gr. Same powder load of BH209, 77gr weighed.
Results are consistent <MOA groups at 100yds.

Headed out to the blind shortly!!

Thanks again for the advice. Great forum here on MM! :yeah:

I am one of the few that swabs with BH too. All of the bores I am working with have had plenty of other powders through them. Not sure that is why or not, but I also get flyers after a few shots. I do not use a wet or even damp patch with BH, it can cause a slurry with the ash and you will need more than one or 2 patches to dry it out. If wet enough I would be concerned that it could run into the Breech plug and make a mess there. Next time you shoot at the range try just one Dry patch. That is all I have fond that I need. You don't need t remove the plug to clean the flash channel, just stick the bit in there and scrape it out then shoot some more.

When you go to clean the rifle, try one dry patch all the way through the bore to remove the ash from BH, then clean with the solvent. You will find that you will most likely need fewer patches.