Muzzleloader Max Loads.....maybe not what you think!

[451 whitworth]

Thing here is this has nothing to do with max Loads. I know two rifles that shoot right along with BH209 using only 94 grns. Swiss

Swiss is a great powder - hard to come by in most places - but undoubtedly the best of the best real Black Powders. But if you sit down and analyze it there are some tremendous advantages to BH for the majority of the average ML hunters across the US.

And another fact the pressure curves created by BH have less peak pressures than Swiss with a similar weight projectile - yet BH will create more velocity because of its progressive burning properties with the heavier projectiles...

A Swiss pressure curve is not included on this chart, but good information is shown.

I would like to see the pressure scale include numbers

 

[GM54-120]

Each line in the graph is 5kpsi

The loads were 150gr by volume for loose powders and 3 pellets. Bullet was a 250gr sabot load. I believe you can find the actual test info in Lyman's Black Powder manual 2nd edition.

 

[451 whitworth]

Each line in the graph is 5kpsi

thanks!

 

[ENCORE50A]

I think this is the way its supposed to look?

 

[long shot]

why not email

 

[GM54-120]

As another reference ONLY .....98gr by weight of BH209 is roughly 140gr by volume.

This was shot in a Pacnor 45 barrel with a Fed209A and a Savage breach plug. Max pressure is typically higher when the load is shot sabotless in a smaller bore.

For REFERENCE ONLY this was shot in a custom CF grade .450x.458 416R barrel. DO NOT USE THIS DATA IN YOUR RIFLE!!

 

[sabotloader]

I think this is the way its supposed to look?

Thanks Encore - I didn't even notice that I had cut part of the chart off!!

 

[Butcher45]

Which powder is the better powder, and fast and light vs heavy and slow is neither here not there when it comes to the OP.

It's all about what the muzzleloader manufacturers are saying about what their maximum loads are.

I didn't get a chance to call Knight today, as I was dealing with customer service on a scope issue. I see someone has already clarified that Knight DOES NOT endorse 150grains by volume of Blackhorn 209 in their guns, which is contrary to what I have seen some mistaken "old-school" muzzleloader folks posting online (even in this very post).

The whole industry needs to do what Knight has done (apparently just started doing?), and differentiate their maximum loads from powder to powder, bullet weight to bullet weight.

As for why CVA approves their heavy conical Powerbelts and not others......other than the obvious (they make PowerBelts), I would venture to GUESS that they tested the pressures created by that specific load and deemed them safe. I'm guessing that they can't tell how much pressure the various other loads of different diameters/tightness/bullet material in the bore are going to produce. Just a guess.

 

[52Bore]

I see the original post has gotten off line a bit.
IMO, max loads are developed to what a makers test to what their barrel and/or action can withstand SAFELY.
Powders makers know pressure spikes when abnormal amounts are used and/or projectile weight increases. Especially with the more powerful powders like 777 and Nitrocellulose based powder like BH209 (I wonder want % smokeless BH209 actually is) we see this limit of 120/84. This isn't just because they want to keep it at 150gr BP comparison - their testing has proven such to be unsafe. In today's more-is-better world, if BH209 thought they could recommend a 200gr safely, don't think for a second they wouldn't. Then it just would come down to what recoil the shooter can withstand, we actually see this with Smokeless guns - heavier and muzzle breaks.
So, that begs the Question: Where/when did 150gr Max come from?

 

[52Bore]

FYI:
BP cans DO NOT have any powder limit.
I looked at 1 lb cans from Goex, Swiss, Schuetzen, Olde Eynsford, Wano, Deagon, Lidu, Elephant & KIK.
The only thing I found interesting is that Swiss and Schuetzen note, if using in an original or replica and your not familiar with proper loading - contact the NMLRA.

 

[Butcher45]

FYI:
BP cans DO NOT have any powder limit.
I looked at 1 lb cans from Goex, Swiss, Schuetzen, Olde Eynsford, Wano, Deagon, Lidu, Elephant & KIK.
The only thing I found interesting is that Swiss and Schuetzen note, if using in an original or replica and your not familiar with proper loading - contact the NMLRA.

Yet another factor that muddies the waters.

 

[sabotloader]

FYI:
BP cans DO NOT have any powder limit.
I looked at 1 lb cans from Goex, Swiss, Schuetzen, Olde Eynsford, Wano, Deagon, Lidu, Elephant & KIK.
The only thing I found interesting is that Swiss and Schuetzen note, if using in an original or replica and your not familiar with proper loading - contact the NMLRA.

I would also add that when powder companies setlimts they must consider every muzzleloader on the market not just the latest and greates but even the older ML`s out there in our hands. Because of these older ML`s the powder companies have to be very conservative in they set their maximum powder levels at. Manufactures on the other that do their own independent testing can and do set different powder levels for their particular rifles. And today most often these levels are elevated from what the powder company suggests.

I think the biggest example of this is Hodgdon sets the se of pellets at two pellets. While most manufactures of new ML`s suggest 3 pellets being the upper level. Yet three pellets creates more peak presure than does the 150 grains of T7.

 

[52Bore]

That's because everything is based off Black Powder, even modern shotgun shells today still measure powder in dram equivalent - its on the box.
What muddy's the water is the subs asking people to use a reduced amount % based off Black Powder equivalent. I even remember this when Pyrodex came out when I was a kid, then 777 and now BH209 - all with different %.
So, maybe 150 is just a number to compare BP to - but where did that come from?

 

[52Bore]

I would also add that when powder companies setlimts they must consider every muzzleloader on the market not just the latest and greates but even the older ML`s out there in our hands. Because of these older ML`s the powder companies have to be very conservative in they set their maximum powder levels at. Manufactures on the other that do their own independent testing can and do set different powder levels for their particular rifles. And today most often these levels are elevated from what the powder company suggests.

I think the biggest example of this is Hodgdon sets the se of pellets at two pellets. While most manufactures of new ML`s suggest 3 pellets being the upper level. Yet three pellets creates more peak presure than does the 150 grains of T7.

I would agree except with BH209 because of it's poor ignition.

 

[sabotloader]

I would also add that when powder companies setlimts they must consider every muzzleloader on the market not just the latest and greates but even the older ML`s out there in our hands. Because of these older ML`s the powder companies have to be very conservative in they set their maximum powder levels at. Manufactures on the other that do their own independent testing can and do set different powder levels for their particular rifles. And today most often these levels are elevated from what the powder company suggests.

I think the biggest example of this is Hodgdon sets the se of pellets at two pellets. While most manufactures of new ML`s suggest 3 pellets being the upper level. Yet three pellets creates more peak presure than does the 150 grains of T7.

I would agree except with BH209 because of it's poor ignition.

I am not sure I understand what you are indicating... poor ignition? It ignites just fine with the right breech plug. I have shot it in DISC's using a Remington 410 primers or even T7 primers. So I must be missing your point??? Help me!

 

[52Bore]

Sorry, when you stated 'older' ML - I was thinking older as percussion and such that BH209 will not ignite.

 

[sabotloader]

Sorry, when you stated 'older' ML - I was thinking older as percussion and such that BH209 will not ignite.

Oh ya! you are quite right. When they go back they certainly do not have to go back as far and off the top of my head I can not think of any 209 muzzleloaders that might be a concern... Never mind yes I can there is at least one brand that was produced early with 209 ignition that you really might need to be concerned with...

An even greater concern with BH is the weight of the projectile. BH starts becoming real efficient with projectile weights above 275 gr. I really wonder what type of peak pressure it might produce with a heavy lead conical? But who would shoot a large charge of BH with a heavy projectile.

So yes you are right BH

 

[1874sharpsshooter]

I shot Blackhorn in my .451 English Sporting rifle with #11 cap
460 gr conicals . Excellent accuracy . 10 gr black powder for igniter and 70 gr Blackhorn . Worked for me

 

[52Bore]

I shot Blackhorn in my .451 English Sporting rifle with #11 cap
460 gr conicals . Excellent accuracy . 10 gr black powder for igniter and 70 gr Blackhorn . Worked for me

WOW, I have and have owned many original .451 English rifles, doubles and single Sporting and Target - please tell me you are not doing this to an original?
Well, Sabotloader - you just asked 1.5 hrs ago about my comment on BH209 'poor ignitoin': although I was thinking percussion and BH209 loads exiting just a few feet: here you go, another example. Reverse duplexing to get ignition just doesn't make since.

ANYONE READING THIS, PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS!!!

 

[1874sharpsshooter]

I shot Blackhorn in my .451 English Sporting rifle with #11 cap
460 gr conicals . Excellent accuracy . 10 gr black powder for igniter and 70 gr Blackhorn . Worked for me

WOW, I have and have owned many original .451 English rifles, doubles and single Sporting and Target - please tell me you are not doing this to an original?
Well, Sabotloader - you just asked 1.5 hrs ago about my comment on BH209 'poor ignitoin': although I was thinking percussion and BH209 loads exiting just a few feet: here you go, another example. Reverse duplexing to get ignition just doesn't make since.

ANYONE READING THIS, PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS!!!

White English Sporting with Douglas barrel . That was the load Doc was using in it . Since it was sighted in with that load i tried it and stuck with it .
Gun was built to handle it. Try it you might like it