More bullet issues:

[BlackPowderGuy (AJHS)]

I was at the range this morning sighting in my new-to-me, Cabelas/Investarm .50 cal. I used a 400 grain flat-top/flat bottom bullet cast by a member here, a Hornady GP 385 grain and a 300 grain Hornady XTP in a Harvester sabot. At 50 yards, all shot very well, a inch or so with open sights. The XTP/Sabot required light pressure from muzzle to breech. The Hornady GP and the other bullet all took a little pushing at the muzzle, but then literally fell to the bottom of the bore...ramrod only confirmed that the bullet was fully seated.
Questions:
1. Is it a "problem" if the bullet slides down the bore AFTER the rifling has imprinted during the initial load into the muzzle? - The bullets shot great and if I am hunting out of a blind where I can easily check to make sure the bullet is seated after walking to the blind etc, it's no big deal...but it would make stalk hunting feels scarier because of the fear that the projectile had migrated?
2. Other option is to modify the bullets so that they are tighter- that was suggested to me though I am not sure how to "tin" a bullet?
3. Look for a bullet that is actually a little bigger than .500?
4. Just use the saboted bullet since it was firmly seated and shot well.

Feedback is, as always, apprecciated.

 

[michiganmuzzy]

"Tin" would be adding more tin to the lead during casting. Helps keep the bullet in place, better than pure lead. Can't be added after

You could knurl the bullets. Roll them between two bastard cut files with light pressure on them. That would fatten them a couple thousandth.

Paper patching is also an option.

If the sabots shoot well theres nothing wrong with shooting them.

Have you tried patched round balls?

 

[BlackPowderGuy (AJHS)]

"Tin" would be adding more tin to the lead during casting. Helps keep the bullet in place, better than pure lead. Can't be added after

You could knurl the bullets. Roll them between two bastard cut files with light pressure on them. That would fatten them a couple thousandth.

Paper patching is also an option.

If the sabots shoot well theres nothing wrong with shooting them.

Have you tried patched round balls?

I did try patched round balls...so here's the thing with them today. At 25 yards, they were fine at 50 yards, they weren't on paper! The two conical bullets and the saboted bullet were 2 inches high of the bull at 50 but clearly on paper!

 

[michiganmuzzy]

What amount of powder? Same with rb and bullets?
Can you shoot at a large piece of cardboard or paper to see where the rb are going? Or stick with the sabots if theyre good till you can get a higher tin bullet. I use 40 to 1 lead/tin and the bullets STAY put no matter what i do. Others go with 30:1 or even 20:1.

 

[billyboy*]

Sounds like your barrel may be "Choked" (Smaller Diameter) Near the Muzzle. You may want to Polish that portion of your barrel with Ultrafine White Scotchbrite. I like to have the same amount of loading resistance from Muzzle to Breech.

 

[Walkingeagle]

Two years ago while deer hunting on a cold Nov morning (-27c) I had a lead cast maxiball fall out of the barrel of my GPH. It has never had an issue before but taught me to check things more often.
Walk

 

[BlackPowderGuy (AJHS)]

What I don't understand about the "muzzleloading business" is why IS there any variance in bore sizes? In the centerfire rifle world I never hear about bore variances, but with ML, I see all the time that 2 .50 cals have different internal diameters. Is this a quality control thing? Doesn't make sense to me...

 

[Jitterbug]

What I don't understand about the "muzzleloading business" is why IS there any variance in bore sizes? In the centerfire rifle world I never hear about bore variances, but with ML, I see all the time that 2 .50 cals have different internal diameters. Is this a quality control thing? Doesn't make sense to me...

I think the variances come from machining and/or sloppy quality control.

With a centerfire, is the average owner going to detect barrel variances? Doubtful… either a barrel “shoots,” or it doesn’, for your average owner. They’re not pushing anything through the bore, save the occasional patch. The MZ shooter is feeling what’s going on in their bore, every time it’s loaded!

If an MZ barrel is “choked” near the muzzle, you can feel that when loading. If a centerfire barrel were similarly “choked,” how would the average owner know? Stick your cartridge in the chamber, and the bullet could rattle halfway down the barrel before properly engaging the rifling.

Could such a rifle be reasonably accurate? I don’t know…

 

[deermanok]

I've hunted with TC Maxi Hunters and Hornady PA conicals, never had an issue with them moving off the powder charge.
Round balls can be frustrating until you find the right patch, ball and powder combo.
For example, my full stock Tennessee rifle shot terrible until I switched to a .495 ball and a .015 patch.

 

[Bad Karma]

What I don't understand about the "muzzleloading business" is why IS there any variance in bore sizes? In the centerfire rifle world I never hear about bore variances, but with ML, I see all the time that 2 .50 cals have different internal diameters. Is this a quality control thing? Doesn't make sense to me...

Those variants exist in any firearms manufacturing process. The more you spend the more consistency you can expect from your barrel. Generally speaking. But it’s long been understood that every gun is a law unto itself. Most modern rifle shooters never discover their guns true dimensions because it’s not necessary for 1-2” moa performance from a modern rifle/ammunition.

 

[Dave951]

What I don't understand about the "muzzleloading business" is why IS there any variance in bore sizes? In the centerfire rifle world I never hear about bore variances, but with ML, I see all the time that 2 .50 cals have different internal diameters. Is this a quality control thing? Doesn't make sense to me...

You want to play in this world, get used to it. There are no established SAAMI standards especially when dealing with repops. It's huge when you start playing with replica Civil War arms. I've seen bores range from .575 to .584 but since muskets were designed around the Minie system, if the bullet is close, like within .001, it's going to obturate to fit.

Bore variance isn't really an issue in the muzzleloading world if you take it into account when doing load development. Black powder will force a pure/near pure lead bullet to obturate to fit the bore. You can take up windage with a different patch. You have to learn fouling management meaning load development with differing powders/lubes/caps.

This is one of the odd things about muzzleloading that modern shooters just don't get. Because a barrel is marke XX caliber, doesn't mean it really measures it. Twist rates vary because of PRB or conical as do rifling depths. Bullet alloys are all over the place because of the aforementioned variables. All this was stuff the ODG (old dead guys) knew and knew how to work with. That knowledge is pretty much extinct with modern shooters and that's why those of us who play with these guns work to keep it alive.

One thing that spans across time is marksmanship. How you shoot can greatly affect the intrinsic accuracy of a given load/arm. Modern arms cover that up with lock time, bullet shape/composition and velocity so errors in technique don't show up at distances most folks shoot. Extend that distance and they start to show again. Now with a muzzleloader everything is critical and errors show up even at short range. Get your technique wrong and good luck hitting the X ring. Like golf, follow through is critical. Keep your head down on the stock or miss every time. When I'm practicing offhand with my Civil War muskets and then end the session with my AK or AR, I can hit 6in gongs offhand at 200yd with ease. It flips the Tackycool Timmys out at my range and is fun to do. So learn to live with the variation and how to cope with it and greatly improve your shooting with modern stuff.

 

[Benchman]

I was at the range this morning sighting in my new-to-me, Cabelas/Investarm .50 cal. I used a 400 grain flat-top/flat bottom bullet cast by a member here, a Hornady GP 385 grain and a 300 grain Hornady XTP in a Harvester sabot. At 50 yards, all shot very well, a inch or so with open sights. The XTP/Sabot required light pressure from muzzle to breech. The Hornady GP and the other bullet all took a little pushing at the muzzle, but then literally fell to the bottom of the bore...ramrod only confirmed that the bullet was fully seated.
Questions:
1. Is it a "problem" if the bullet slides down the bore AFTER the rifling has imprinted during the initial load into the muzzle? - The bullets shot great and if I am hunting out of a blind where I can easily check to make sure the bullet is seated after walking to the blind etc, it's no big deal...but it would make stalk hunting feels scarier because of the fear that the projectile had migrated?
2. Other option is to modify the bullets so that they are tighter- that was suggested to me though I am not sure how to "tin" a bullet?
3. Look for a bullet that is actually a little bigger than .500?
4. Just use the saboted bullet since it was firmly seated and shot well.

Feedback is, as always, apprecciated.

I have a few of these rifles. Only got a 300gr XTP to stabilize in one of them. Most are very happy with 240 - 250 gr XTP's, over 100 gr loose T7. They also shoot the 385 GP bullet pretty good, over 80 gr T7 . The sabots are legal and work well on deer, which is all I hunt. Tge furthest I have killed a deer with them is at 176. Killed it fine. If I was hunting elk, I'd probably go to the 385 grain Hornady, but for deer, I have found it to be unnecessary.

 

[mnoland30]

Benchman is giving you good advice. You didn't mention how much powder you're using. You work up loads in a muzzleloader just like in a centerfire rifle. 5 or 10 gr. of powder can make a big difference. Depending on the twist rate of your rifle, it may or may not stabilize heavier bullets. I personally like heavy bullets, because I often make 200 yard shots on both deer and elk, and higher sectional density means pass throughs for a blood trail, although with the right bullet it is seldom necessary. I love flat fronted bullets and hollow points because they hammer game.

 

[Benchman]

Benchman is giving you good advice. You didn't mention how much powder you're using. You work up loads in a muzzleloader just like in a centerfire rifle. 5 or 10 gr. of powder can make a big difference. Depending on the twist rate of your rifle, it may or may not stabilize heavier bullets. I personally like heavy bullets, because I often make 200 yard shots on both deer and elk, and higher sectional density means pass throughs for a blood trail, although with the right bullet it is seldom necessary. I love flat fronted bullets and hollow points because they hammer game.

Also would not hurt to try a felt wad on top of your powder, with a conical.