Best ML for Oregon?

[oregonelkhunter]

As many of you know, Oregon has some of the most restrictive regulations for muzzleloader hunting in the nation. That said, I think I would like to try, possibly for pronghorn hunting.

I would like your recommendations for which ML would be best.
Also, I have a friend who wants to sell me a T/C Renegrade. .54cal. for a very good price. Would this be a good choice or should I just spend the money for a newer model?

Here are the Oregon regs:
"Muzzleloader? is any single barreled long gun meant to be fired from the shoulder and loaded from the muzzle with an open ignition system and open or peep sights and includes: open ignition in-line percussion; sidelock, under-hammer, top-hammer and mule ear percussion; sidelock flintlock and wheelock ignition systems. Matchlock ignition systems are not allowed.
?Conical lead or lead alloy bullets with a length that does not exceed twice the diameter and lead or lead alloy round balls used with cloth, paper or felt patches are allowed.?

So, no scopes, sabots, centerfire primers, etc.

Thanks, in advance, OEH.

 

[cayuga]

Without argument, the .54 caliber Renegade is a great rifle. It will shoot roundball (which is legal for you) and conicals. As with any rifle and open sights, you are limited in range unless your very skilled with open sights. So you figure a 100 yards plus rifle with the open sights. There for a side lock would work fine and give you many years of hunting. I do know one person with roundball, that can hit a white paper plate time and time again at 150 yards. His rifle is a T/C Hawkins .50 caliber. He is just plain a good shot. While I practice a lot, I cannot compete with that fellow.

With the kind of rifles allowed, you are open to hammer striker model inline rifles. Now the question is, what's the best hammer striker model inline that shoots all lead bullets. Well that's easy, it is a White .451 or .504 rifle. The problem is the company is out of business, and those that own them intend to be buried with them for the most part. They are out there, but they are expensive. They shoot a large conical with extreme accuracy. They are thumpers when it comes to hunting. I own three of them, I like them so much.

Since no sabots are allowed some other rifles to consider is a Lyman Great Plains Rifle with the 1-32 twist. These traditional style rifles have been know to be excellent conical shooters. A conical, while having a rainbow trajectory has some extreme down range energy, when you compare it to a roundball.

Getting back to the Renegade .54 caliber, they can take a Green Mountain Barrel. I have a couple of them for that rifle. The Green Mountain Rifles have a 1-28 twist. The ones I have are very good conical shooters. I would think with a Lyman Peep or T/C peep, and practice, you could throw some large lead out there with extreme accuracy. Although, check the Green Mountain site if you consider this route and see what they have. Look at their IBS barrels with a 1 inch flat in LRH fast twist.

Just some suggestions. Personally I would get that Renegade and hunt with it. That is my favorite rifle, and caliber.

 

[oregonelkhunter]

Cayuga- thanks for the great information. I really appreciate yout ongoing willingness to help.

So you would go with the Green Mountain barrel if you wanted better long range accuracy from the Renegrade?

 

[cayuga]

Don't underestimate the original barrel on a Renegade. I have four of them. All of them will shoot conicals. But where I hunt, the longest shot I ever took was 80 yards through one deer, and fifteen feet more through the second deer. That was with a roundball. They are great roundball shooters, and a .54 caliber roundball is deadly. And no matter what the experts say, I've never had a deer run off after being hit with one.

I have Green Mountain barrels in all twists. For instance, a great roundball barrel is their .58 caliber with a 1-70 twist. With 110 grains of black powder 2f and a .570 (284 grain) roundball, this thing will drop anything you want to shoot. It is also one of the most accurate open sight rifles I shoot. It normally shoots at least a 4 inch group at 100 yards.

My 1-28 twist Green Mountain Barrel will shoot sabots real well. You can not hunt with them in your state, but it also shoots a 460 grain lead conical real well also. And with 90 grains of Triple Seven 2f and that conical, I would tackle anything in North America.

Something about shooting a Traditional rifle. They are a lot of fun and a lot more dependable them most people think. I was shooting a .54 caliber T/C New Englander today. 90 grains of 2f black powder, a patched .530 ball, and it was holding a great group at 35 yards all day. I shot 18 rounds and never swabbed the barrel. Because of one flier, it shot a two inch group. But most the time it was bumping balls.

 

[cayuga]

What kind of shots/range do you expect to encounter? Another rifle to keep an eye out for is a T/C Black Mountain Magnum. They have a 1-28 twist. I have one of them also, and it uses a musket cap ignition so it really goes off sweet. That rifle will shoot sabots, but I have not played with conicals enough with it to tell you will will shoot them. I suspect it will.

 

[oregonelkhunter]

I would like to try for pronghorn tags. It would be great to have an ML that shoots 300 yards, but if I could get good accuracy up to 100 or 150 yards I could hunt. In my favorite pronghorn area, I can, with work, get within 100. OEH

 

[cayuga]

The renegade the way it sits would do 100 yards. A .54 roundball would plant that goat with little problem. With a green mountian barrel, you still might be stretching more out of 125. I can't say as I never shot them that far with open sights. With my eye sight, I have been backing down my open sight ranges a lot the past few years. Although I went to 1x scopes on my muzzleloaders (wisconsin does not allow scopes) and that has helped me a lot.

I would get some shooting sticks, and then start to practice. I am sure if you have good shooting skills you can soon determine how close you have to get to the pronghorn. Good luck with your hunt.

 

[oregonelkhunter]

Honestly, with open sights, 100 yards is probably the best I can do also. It has been so long since I shot anything with open sights. Should be fun!

 

[frontier gander]

i'd get the .54 renegade. With patched round ball, i wouldnt be affraid to take a shot at an elk at 150 yards.

 

[nw_hunter]

54 renegade

i'd get the .54 renegade. With patched round ball, i wouldnt be affraid to take a shot at an elk at 150 yards.

The problem with shooting an elk at 150 yds with a 54 patched rb, is the lack of energy left at that distance. With 100 grs. of powder , 220 gr rb, the energy is only 500 fpe at 100 yds. Add another 50 and it drops drastically.

Also at that distance a light breeze can move that light ball enough to miss the target or hit a non vital area and wound game.

A 400 gr conical with the same powder load will give you around a thousand fpe, or better.

I would opt for a fast twist barrel with a conical such as a Maxi ball, Lee Real bullet or something along those lines. JMHOP

 

[sabotloader]

oregonelkhunter

I know you posted this in the Traditional section, but your regulations do allow you to use an inline...

Therefor if you could find one - I really would suggest a White .504. There are still some avaialble but you have find them.

PM Underclocked he usually has a good handle on where you might find one...

Other good inlines for shooting conicals... the Knight Bighorn, Remington 700ml, TC black Diamond.

Another option is to install a GM 50 cal fast twist percussion barrel on the TC Renegade that you have a line on. They have replacement barrels that will drop right in your Renegade Stock. The Renegade using a 1" barrel, but a 15/16ths fast twist will drop right in. With the GM barrel (called a Long Range Hunter) you will get a 1/28 twist which will shoot those big conicals from Bull Shop or No Excuses.

Here is a pic of a Renegade with the GM-LRH installed... Both of these barrels are 15/16ths barrels one stainless one blued...

 

[frontier gander]

Re: 54 renegade

i'd get the .54 renegade. With patched round ball, i wouldnt be affraid to take a shot at an elk at 150 yards.

The problem with shooting an elk at 150 yds with a 54 patched rb, is the lack of energy left at that distance. With 100 grs. of powder , 220 gr rb, the energy is only 500 fpe at 100 yds. Add another 50 and it drops drastically.

Also at that distance a light breeze can move that light ball enough to miss the target or hit a non vital area and wound game.

A 400 gr conical with the same powder load will give you around a thousand fpe, or better.

I would opt for a fast twist barrel with a conical such as a Maxi ball, Lee Real bullet or something along those lines. JMHOP

Tell all of that to this big ol girl i took at 140 yards through both lungs with 80gr pyrodex and a homecast .530" round ball. She didnt go but 60 yards after the shot.

Both lungs were trashed.

 

[oregonelkhunter]

Sabotloader - those are two beautiful firearms. Good advise on the GM barrel.

So, how would you compare the practical efficiency for hunting between the ignition systems of the Renegade and the White?
Thanks, OEH

 

[sabotloader]

oregonelkhunter

practical efficiency for hunting between the ignition systems of the Renegade and the White?

That is a tough one, as I consider anything one can do the other can do as well, especially when you compare unscoped models...

The advantage is the 1/24 twist rate found in a White vs the 1/28 of a GM-LRH barrel. But it really is a toss up...

Ignition... Doc White is really proud of the #11 ignition system found in the White - in all weater and all temperatures. It works... With the Renegade it can be a little more picky but again for myself and hunting with one for several years - i can make the #11 work almost as a well.

Now I know it is an over-kill but here is a nice whitetail doe taken with the Renegade & GM-LRH barrel @ 90+ yards with a 460 grain Bullshop. I use the 460 because I also use this gun during Idaho's ML elk season...

And here is one using a White 504 during regular rifle season...

 

[oregonelkhunter]

Oregon does not allow the lenght of a conical bullet to exceel 2x the diameter of the bullet?
Any bullet recommendations for the White at 1:24 or the Green Mountain at 1:28?

 

[sabotloader]

oregonelkhunter

conical bullet to exceel 2x the diameter of the bullet?

Correct the BullShop and the No Excuse 460 grain lead coniclas both qualify they are less than an inch long. I do prefer the Bull Shop to the No-Excuse becuse he will size it to your bore.

If you were to get a GM-LRH barrel you will need a .503 Bull Shop if you were to get a 504 White and it were a later model of 504 you might need a .5045 conical

If you want a smaller bullet for deer, Bull shop does have other options, I forgot to mention these are 'slip fit' conicals - a short starter is not really needed - you push the conical into the riflelings with your thumb then apply the ram rod. As you push them down the riflings engrave the concial.

Another thing I do - well better yet I should say from the LRH barrel I shoot 90 grains of T7-2f, a .510 fiber wad, then the Bullshop. All touched off with a Dynymit Noble 1075+ #11 mag cap. Well actually the same load in the White also. This really a hot load load for that big of a projectile. If you are shooting real BP or another sub you might still load the same weight powder but the velocity and the recoil would be less.

Here is a target I shot with the LRH mounted in a Hawken stock.

Forgot the picture of the Bull Shop Collection

 

[oregonelkhunter]

I know that Oregon does not allow them during ML season, but what saboted bullets and loads do you like with your Renegade with GM barrel? Can they outshoot the conicals? Thanks, OEH

 

[sabotloader]

oregonelkhunter

I hunt all year now with a ML, even during Idaho's regular rifle season. Using a sabot and one of the LRH barrels is not a problem - it is basically the same barrel they use on the Knight line of rifles.

but what saboted bullets and loads do you like with your Renegade with GM barrel? Can they outshoot the conicals?

I am not sure what you mean by 'out shoot'... shooting conicals or sabots from the LRH - they both are terribly accurate. The sabot/projectile round will be quicker and flatter than the conical. If you choose the right projectile - it can be a devastating shot. And if you are inclined you can run the powder load up to 120 grains with a 300 grain bullet - run that out the barrel around 1900 fps.

Again if you compare the sidelock renegade with a GM-LRH barrel it will do most anything a modern day inline can do.

This target was shot with one of my favorite less expensive bullets. It is a bonded Speer - awesome on deer... Target was shot with regular TV open sights...

 

[nw_hunter]

Re: 54 renegade

A 400 gr conical with the same powder load will give you around a thousand fpe, or better.

I would opt for a fast twist barrel with a conical such as a Maxi ball, Lee Real bullet or something along those lines. JMHOP[/quote]

Tell all of that to this big ol girl i took at 140 yards through both lungs with 80gr pyrodex and a homecast .530" round ball. She didnt go but 60 yards after the shot.

Both lungs were trashed.

[/quote]


Nice Cow! Congrats......Not saying it can't be done, but the conditions and placement of the shot are critical at that distance. With a conical the odds are better.

 

[oregonelkhunter]

So, are we saying that a White rifle shooting conicals (or sabots) and a Renegade with fast twist GM barrel shooting conicals (or sabots) are comparable shooters?

If yes, what is the difference between the two options as a hunting tool? Is it the ignition system? Is the Renegade less reliable? - substantially or slightly? Weather related or inherently? Thanks, OEH