CVA Optima and BH209 Advice Needed

[GregBFL]

My hunting buddy has convinced me to start muzzleloader hunting again so I've been doing so research on the new muzzleloaders, powders, bullets, etc. Now bear in mind, the last muzzleloader I owned was a T/C Renegade (early 80's) and I was using Pyrodex, patches, and .50 round balls back then. I have to tell you I am absolutely amazed and somewhat intimidated by the new (to me at least) "Inline" muzzleloaders and the myriad of bullet choices available. Anyhow, with all the confidence that goes with ignorance, I went out and purchased a new rifle and all the necessary equipment and cleaning supplies to go with it.

I went with the CVA Optima V2 and I chose Blackhorn 209 for powder because I've been reading how well it performs and the ease at which it is cleaned. I've already ordered the Blackhorn QRBP and it should arrive here today or tomorrow. As for bullets, I decided to try the Hornady SST .45 Caliber 250 Grain and the T/C Mag Express Sabot w/ 240 Grain Hornady XTP. Hopefully between these two I will come up with decent groups. I live in Florida and where I hunt it's so thick you would be lucky to get a 100 yd shot so I am not too concerned about shooting long distances.

I am hoping all my parts will arrive by tomorrow because I would like to sight it in on Sunday. I do have some questions before I start shooting it and hope someone will give me a little help. I would ask my buddy but he shoots White Hots and he is not familiar with BH209 at all. First, It's been close to 100 degrees during the day here so is there a temperature I should let the barrel get down to between shots? Second, I have read that BH209 is very clean shooting but I will be shooting sabots, should I still run patches between shots? Third, I know you have to measure BH209 by VOLUME and I purchased several BH209 Powder Tubes, would anyone care to share load recommendations for using BH209 with the Hornaday SST 250 Gr and/or the TC Mag Express w/ 240 Gr XTP? Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[ronlaughlin]

Don't expect the Blackhorn vials to provide accurate measurements of volume. They are handy for carrying powder to the range. Purchase a device designed to accurately measure powder such as the TC U-View measure. A charge of about 90g Blackhorn is a decent starting/ending load. When hot it wouldn't hurt to wait 10 minutes between shots. It isn't necessary to swab between shots, but it is fine to do so, if you wish.

 

[MrTom]

Ron has summed it up fairly well. I'd shoot the bullet/sabot combos and loads of the powder out to 120 grains in 10 grain increments starting at 90 grains. Some gun/bullet-sabot combos just do better when loaded heavier and there's only one way to find out.

That's a nice gun.....you'll enjoy it.

 

[HC]

First thing Greg, welcome to the group. What Ron and Tom said is sound advice. There's a wealth of good information on this forum.

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[GregBFL]

Thanks for the welcome and the advice, that is exactly what I am looking for. I spent a lot of time on this forum trying to figure out what to use and I still had a few questions, thanks again for answering my questions. I have an actual powder measure on the way but I forgot to mention it in my original post. The one thing I was really unsure of was whether to go with bullets in the 240 - 250 grain weight or the 300 grain grain weight. I decided to start out with a hollow point and conical version of the lighter bullets first.

I did notice several recommendations for the Barnes Spit-Fire T-EZ 250 Grain and the Barnes Spit-Fire TMZ 250 Grain and I wished I had ordered at least one of those as well. If the two I ordered don't work out I can try some of the Barnes. I am purchasing the BH209 and Winchester 209 shotshell primers locally at Bass Pro Shops due to the high cost of the Hazmat fee. I buy a lot of rifle and pistol ammo in bulk online because they waive the Hazmat fee if your order is $150 or so. I need to find out if they carry BH209 and Primers as well or someone that does so that I can make one big order. If anyone knows of a place like this, please share. Thanks again.

 

[MrTom]

I cannot speak on the hazmat costs and ordering of this 209/primers on-line as I get all of mine right here in town.

I can speak on 300 grain bullets, most specifically the 300 grain, .44 cal XTP bullets as I hunt those in my Impact and in my Accura V2. On a fouled barrel I get one ragged hole at 100 yards shooting the xtp over 77 grains weighed of the 209 powder [110 grains by volume] and the Winnie primer, both guns. A green crush-rib harvester sabot carries the bullet. The 240/250 grain bullets in .44 cal or .45 cal in either of these two guns shoot ok with the same powder charge but the groups are broader, like 2 1/2" at 100 yards. The 300 grain .44 cal xtp drops deer right now and is what I use currently and until something happens to change my mind I'll continue using this bullet for deer .

 

[LBAhunter]

I have a Optima V2 black SS thumbhole. It will shoot just about anything good. If you put a Barnes 185 gr TAC-XP or 225 gr XPB in a MMP black sabot with 70 grains (weight) of BH209 with Federal 209A primer, it will shoot even better!!!! and its easy on the shoulder with both loads!!!!

 

[Chris W.]

Thanks for the welcome and the advice, that is exactly what I am looking for. I spent a lot of time on this forum trying to figure out what to use and I still had a few questions, thanks again for answering my questions. I have an actual powder measure on the way but I forgot to mention it in my original post. The one thing I was really unsure of was whether to go with bullets in the 240 - 250 grain weight or the 300 grain grain weight. I decided to start out with a hollow point and conical version of the lighter bullets first.

I did notice several recommendations for the Barnes Spit-Fire T-EZ 250 Grain and the Barnes Spit-Fire TMZ 250 Grain and I wished I had ordered at least one of those as well. If the two I ordered don't work out I can try some of the Barnes. I am purchasing the BH209 and Winchester 209 shotshell primers locally at Bass Pro Shops due to the high cost of the Hazmat fee. I buy a lot of rifle and pistol ammo in bulk online because they waive the Hazmat fee if your order is $150 or so. I need to find out if they carry BH209 and Primers as well or someone that does so that I can make one big order. If anyone knows of a place like this, please share. Thanks again.

I have the Optima V2 as well. Great shooting rifle. After trying a few different combinations, I ended up shooting the Barnes 250 gr T-EZ with 100 grs BH209 and CCi 209 magnum primers. Shooting off sandbags, the first two shots will typically touch. The third shot usually gives groups in the 1.25 to 1.5 inch range. The combo has been devastating on deer.

 

[GregBFL]

Again, thanks for all the information. I am going to make notes with the various loads provided and try them in the future. I did pick up some BH209 at BPS today along with some Winchester 209 shotgun primers. After I had already checked out I found out that they carry CCI Magnum shotgun primers as well so I will get some of those if I encounter problems with the Winchesters.

I'm getting pretty excited about trying out the various loads because it reminds me of my reloading days. Back when I had the T/C Renegade my father and his buddy had an unbelievable reloading setup. I think they had something like 6 Lyman, RCBS and Dillon presses with a plethora of dies for each. At the time I was shooting handgun competitions with a 1911 and being able to tweak the loads made all the difference in the world. I would make also make a variety of loads for my Ruger Redhawk so I could use it for anything from rabbit hunting to deer hunting. My father's favorite thing was reloading rifle bullets. He spent hours upon hours getting the "perfect" load. I think I am going to really enjoy this muzzleloader!

I'm hoping the rest of ML equipment will arrive tomorrow as expected. In the meantime, I've got the scope mounted, Blackhorn breech plug installed and my CTK Precision rest all ready to go for Sunday. I'll update this post when I get the results.

 

[michigan man]

I'm also trying various bullets with BH 209 on my CVA Wolf. So far 100 grains by volume with the 240 grain XTP, green crush sabot has given the best groups. After each shot I remove my breach plug until I'm ready to load up again. It seems to cool the barrel faster. Good luck.

 

[slong]

I cannot speak on the hazmat costs and ordering of this 209/primers on-line as I get all of mine right here in town.

I can speak on 300 grain bullets, most specifically the 300 grain, .44 cal XTP bullets as I hunt those in my Impact and in my Accura V2. On a fouled barrel I get one ragged hole at 100 yards shooting the xtp over 77 grains weighed of the 209 powder [110 grains by volume] and the Winnie primer, both guns. A green crush-rib harvester sabot carries the bullet. The 240/250 grain bullets in .44 cal or .45 cal in either of these two guns shoot ok with the same powder charge but the groups are broader, like 2 1/2" at 100 yards. The 300 grain .44 cal xtp drops deer right now and is what I use currently and until something happens to change my mind I'll continue using this bullet for deer .

I bought the .45 cal xtp 300gr. Will I see major differences between the .44 and .45?


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[HC]

The 300 will insure a complete pass thru most of the time. The 240 or 250 ive had about half success with pass thru s. Complete pass thru s make for a better blood trail.

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[slong]

So it's only a size difference? I plan on using black harvester sabots, with the xtp 300gn .45 cal with BH powder. Unless someone suggests I go with the xtp 300gn .44cal.
I'm using this for whitetail, but I've also pulled elk tags.
Thank you in advance for your feedback.


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[Chris W.]

So it's only a size difference? I plan on using black harvester sabots, with the xtp 300gn .45 cal with BH powder. Unless someone suggests I go with the xtp 300gn .44cal.
I'm using this for whitetail, but I've also pulled el5k tags.
Thank you in advance for your feedback.


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If memory serves me right, the 44 cal XTP measures .430 and the 45 cal can measure 451-.452, depending on the weight. The 44 cal should have a slightly better B.C. than the 45 cal with the same weight. Just be sure to have to proper size sabot for the caliber bullet and shoot whichever your rifle seems to like more. On game, I don't believe you'll see any really difference in terminal performance but i've never used either.

 

[MrTom]

I bought the .45 cal xtp 300gr. Will I see major differences between the .44 and .45?


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My guns shoot the .44 cal 300 grain XTP bullets just a hair tighter and my focus is primarily deer inside of 50 yards. Just a personal preference and as Hershel suggests the likelihood of a pass thru will likely be greater with a 300 grain bullet vs a 240 grain or 250 grain. Its all about retained energy. The 300 will maintain higher energy than a 240 or 250 at longer ranges. .44.... .45, flip a coin but stay away from the magnum variety in the .45 caliber line-up. The .44 caliber 300 grainers are not expensive so I'd get a box and some green sabots and try them too. If you can't get them the come around to your liking use them for paper punching just to stay tuned up. Your .45 fodder is fine as long as its pushed hard enough.

Most all of the bullets mentioned here in you questions have a common denominator: minimum velocity to initiate expansion. Basically, every one of the bullets referred to have to be traveling at a velocity high enough to start to open up. Notice I said start. And start means at or near the muzzle. Lots of factors come into play when you begin to talk 200 yards at an elk sized animal. You need retained energy at that range to get the bullet to expand as its supposed to so really you need to look at how hard to drive the bullet in that instance....how heavy do you load. Velocity and energy run hand in hand with powder charge. Both of my long guns that shoot the 300 grain XTP are driving the bullet with a 77 grain weighed [110 grain by volume measure] of 209 powder. Do I need that much umph at inside of 50 yards on a white-tail? Not at all.....but shots at 100 yards have come along and I do not like having to follow game. At 100 yard this load will flatten a deer right now. Its been years since I had to walk up a deer shot with a long gun.

 

[LBAhunter]

I would take a look at these bullet tests. Valuable info!!!!

http://rchs61.org/completecapture.htm

 

[GregBFL]

I would take a look at these bullet tests. Valuable info!!!!

http://rchs61.org/completecapture.htm

Thanks for posting this and a special thanks to ronlaughlin for performing the test! I really appreciate all the help everyone has provided. Looks like I will be reading for quite a while.

 

[slong]

I agree, many thanks for your feedback and sharing knowledge.
I'm trying the xtp 300 .45 with 100(70g) and 110(77) of bh209 all with harvester black sabots. Will share my results once I get dialed in.


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