Well I had to Get some...

[sabotloader]

They came yesterday... At first glance they are an awsome looking bullet. I am not a machinist nor a bullet maker but these things are made to look really good. They look like a perfect diamond - I mean really pretty.

I orderd three varieties... the 10 mil/200 grain, the .452/250 grain, and then I went off the deep end and ordered the .458/300 grain as that is the bullet I use for elk hunting.

The 10mil/200 is the one that has my attention more than than the other two. I am thinking if I were going to pay a premium price for a 10 mil bullet it might be this one vs. the SST/SW. OH yea! you all should know that I am not a pointy bullet fan when it comes to ML projectiles. 200 yards is my self imposed limit so I really do not need the pointy bullets. But back to the 10mil. One thing that I really think that will be an advantage is the two rings around the bullet. It should really help the slick brass projectile grip the sabot and prevent the sabot from spinning without turning the bullet, especially at the initial explosion.

I did not realize the the .452/250 had somewhat of a boat tail base - so I am not sure how that will shoot in a regular flat based sabot. Again I do like the ideal of the rings.

The .458 is a huge bullet - physically much larger than I expected, in fact it is to large to use during our ML season as we have the 2x bore diameter rule, but during regular rifle season it would be available since I do not use a regular rifle any more at all.

Why did I get these? I think Grouse already proved they can be shot accurately, but nobody knows how well they will work on big game. My plan is to shoot them in to my torture medium @ 100 yards and dig them out to see what they look like. I have example of recovered Noslers, Speers, and Hornadys that I can compare them with.

If you look at the nose of these you can see on the outside there are no cuts to aid in the formation of petals as expansion first begins. This really concerned me, but if you look in the nose there are six flat surfaces with a small groove separating each flat surface - so I assume this is the apparatus that starts the formation of petals. To invision what I am talking about it looks like you could insert the correct size of allen wrench riht in the nose and turn the bullet.

Here is a picture that shows the Lehighs as compared to more common bullets.

Gotta love experimenting during the non-hunting season

 

[tnhagies]

I look forward to your tests!

 

[SWThomas]

I wanna see what they do on game.

 

[bluedog]

Shoot something!

I sure wish somebody would shoot some critters with those Lehigh bullets and report on the results before they go 'off sale'!

 

[sabotloader]

Here is another comparison photo - forgot I even had these Barnes Expanders MZ... Here is a photo comparison...

They line up pretty decently with each other....

Dang! wish I had time to go run the torture test... hopefully early next week....

SW - bluedog I really wish I could, but we have nothing I can shoot until Septemeber but I do have a gruesome test that I will shoot them into first. If they survive that test then - I would consider using them on an elk - just got to get time to go out and run the test.

At this point - visually all I can say they look very good. How ever they are manufactued they are doing a bang-up splendid job.

If the California lead ban spreads (and I am afraid it will) they would also be another alternative to look at also.

 

[paia]

I wish Lehigh had not ribbed the 300 like that. I think smooth sides, like the Barnes, go better with sabots, but, of course, only shooting them will tell for sure. Good luck and have fun.

 

[sabotloader]

paia

I wonder why they did do that... might try to email them and ask that very question - I would want the cann rings but not the grooves. I wonder if it has something to do with loading a 45-70 cartridge rifle as that is what the bullet is designed for?????

 

[Al in Mi]

paia

I wonder why they did do that... might try to email them and ask that very question - I would want the cann rings but not the grooves. I wonder if it has something to do with loading a 45-70 cartridge rifle as that is what the bullet is designed for?????

That would be my guess, his ML listed bullets show knurled rings.

Can't hurt to ask about getting them smooth sided.

 

[SWThomas]

I'm betting that hard brass doesn't expand. I really do hope these things work, but I'm very skeptical that they will.

 

[big6x6]

That's a really good write-up Pete! GREAT photos as usual which REALLY help as you know. After reading your report and looking at your pictures I am kinda unclear exactly what part of the market Lehigh is trying to grab. THREE items come quickly to mind and the first is a BIGGIE at least in Athens, AL :

BALLISTIC COEFFICIENT
It is VERY obvious that the Lehigh bullets will have the LOWEST BC of practically every muzzleloading bullet available in each weight category. The 200gr and especially the 300gr stick out like a sore thumb, imo. Of course you know that a lower BC translates to less energy, more bullet drop, and more wind drift, all things being equal. As the potential ranges for a modern muzzleloader get greater and greater the ballistic coefficient matters more and more. As potential ranges INCREASE, the BC even affects ACCURACY. In a muzzleloader bullet market surrounded with SSTs, Shockwaves, Spit-Fires, and Ballistics Extremes I really don't see what this bullet offers me unless it's close-range terminal performance. Which leads me to:


BEEN THERE, DONE THAT
When it comes to terminal performance at close range, I immediately think of a Nosler Partition OR a Barnes-X. Over and over it has been proven that the two above bullets are what you want when penetration and terminal performance are what the shooter is looking for. Both are 100% reliable and well documented by countless hunters over years and years. I can't see how any bullet is going beat these two at their own game. And honestly...I've NEVER needed better terminal performance in up to whitetal/auodad sized game than a SST/XTP/Ballistic Extreme offers. Never.


ACCURACY DOESN'T MATTER
Well of COURSE it does! :lol: But no longer is it a novelty in the muzzleloader world to find a bullet that is just accurate even EXTREMELY accurate! XTPs, Dead Centers, SSTs, Expanders, Ballistic Extremes, TMZs, et al are ALL capable of shooting half-inch groups at 100yds here and there in a capable muzzleloader. Really the bar needs to be raised to 200yds and of course consistacy needs to be included as well.

 

[AJ]

As for the BC, I wrote to Lehigh late January and asked them about a high BC bullet for ML shooters. David said they were working on one and it would be 4-6 weeks or so before it is ready. We are now at the 7 week mark so possibly any time now.

Personally, I was not too impressed by their gel test for bullet performance of their current bullets.

 

[omegasmoke]

I also noticed the very low B.C.s on there bullets. It was kind of a turnoff for me. Seems there a lot of better choices out there for less money. Maybe there results on game will change my mind. We will see.

 

[Bucker]

bullets

I think this is a future bullet we will HAVE to use instead of lead. I hope they and we don't stop testing and encouraging these businesses to make steps forward in the shooting sports. I beleive we are going to see a major lead ban in the next cpouple years, these boys are ahead of the curve!

 

[sabotloader]

omegasmoke

noticed the very low B.C.s on there bullets. It was kind of a turnoff for me. Seems there a lot of better choices out there for less money

Exactly... and I would add that the cost is a major factor for me also. If the bullet were to be all that is dreamed of for a hunting bullet - the cost of the bullet alone would for me limit it to - just a hunting bullet shot 2-3 times a year. Certainly could not afford to use it for recreation, heck I can not even afford to shoot my Nosler Partitions at targets.

I think when you read Chuck's thoughts his presented information are so valid and hiis 'points of information' are a major concern to a lot of ML hunters and shooters. I am less concerned about BC than he is when it comes to a ML bullet especially here in the area that I hunt in Idaho. Although, I think Lehigh is working on a refinement to their offerings that will allow them to build a bullet with higher BC's.

For myself, it will comes down to how well do they perform on big game? And when I write that - my concern is elk and more to the point a mad bull. Will they work as well as I know that a 300 grain Nosler Partition will and/or as well as I have been told that a Barnes will, and even then again because of cost they will have to perform better.

For me it is an opportunity and chance to shoot something different. I really like experimenting with different items coming on the market. And I really want people/compaines to continue to develope ML development in projectiles and accessories - gees just look how far the market has moved already.

I do fear the expansion of the 'lead ban' and I encourage any person/company that is willing to to try to develope an alternative. I just want it to be economical and most importantly work.

I really do not know, but I think that Lehigh might be a smaller company entering a market that is controlled by the big guys and is that not good for competition - not to mention design and development and ultimately the consumer?

Now the REAL problem... when do I get the time to torture these things, as I still have a problem with brass being a bit brittle and not breaking...

Shoot! hope some of this makes sense to someone - I think I have it figured out in my little mind.

 

[Lee 9]

Sabot loader when you test them out try a few at about 50 grs to check how they expand at long range.
I heard from one of the guys that tried to figure it out with a chrony the he came up with a BC of .13.
As to the brittleness there are many different combinations of metal that make up the alloy called brass some of the are much more brittle than others, I have no idea of what they are using. They most likely did a lot of testing, the problem I am afraid of is that with the low BC they will slow fast and drop fast and not have enough energy to be useful at longer ranges Lee

 

[sabotloader]

Lee

when you test them out try a few at about 50 grs to check how they expand at long range.

At what range should I be from the clay water bar to try this?

.13 for which bullet and that is lower than I expected from any of the ones that I have... Guess I was thinking more on the lines of .15/.17 mainly because of the big open hollow point.

I do wonder about the ability of an all brass bullet but like you say it can be mixed with other things... I just think of the brass hammers that I used when doing my mechanics work on engines, bearing, and U joints...


What is long range to you? 200 yard is my self imposed ML long range...

The Noslers i am shooting now only have a BC of .2 and work very well out to my max.

I guess I have never got to hung up on BC from a ML especially for hunting for me. I would be willing to bet you most of my elk have been shot under a 100 yards and more like 75, although I did shot one a big bull at 10 yard with a 300 win mag - that was exciting. The longest shot was near 300 with a win mag and the longest ML shot was 175 yards.

If I were hunting the plains or antelope the BC portion of the equation would become even more important...

Think about all those DWB guys that are shooting those 400-500-600 grain conicals at far greater ranges than I would try - those BC's really stink. Doc White once told me his pesonal favorite was a 600 grain conical and 120 grains of Pyro... he said you can shoot more powder than that but accuracy falls off for him after 120 grains. You would think that would make a big impression on your shoulder.

 

[SWThomas]

Re: bullets

I think this is a future bullet we will HAVE to use instead of lead. I hope they and we don't stop testing and encouraging these businesses to make steps forward in the shooting sports. I beleive we are going to see a major lead ban in the next cpouple years, these boys are ahead of the curve!

In that case Barnes must be way, way ahead of the curve.

 

[sabotloader]

SWThomas

In that case Barnes must be way, way ahead of the curve.

Boy that is a fact.... But even Nosler sees the writing on the wall with their new 'E' bullet - the just are not making that many varieties of it yet - not enough demand according to them.. but it might be coming

 

[sabotloader]

This does not do much for a ML shoot but these are the picture I got from Lehigh....

I have no way of verifying anything....

Dave of Lehigh wrote...

Some pictures are a little morbid. I really have not gotten any disection photos of game taken with .45 caliber bullets. The long range shots were taken with a 50 BMG. Now everyone thinks that a 50BMG will just blow a deer up, but that is not the case. For that distance, the bullets have to be very "pointy" and since the velocity has dropped most bullets just punch through like an arrow with a field tip. It took me a couple of years to get these to work.

Remember these were not the 45 cal ML bullets they were a Lehigh designed for the 50 BMG...

860 yard shot on a deer - I think this is a entrance hole

This one was labeled - Exit wound

Again I do not no if this information is applicable but the brass seems to work...

 

[SWThomas]

Jeez! Those guys weren't messing around shooting a deer with a .50 BMG!