Bullet testing vs expansion

[ENCORE50A]

I happened to receive a call from a major bullet manufacturer ballistician yesterday, who has a new custom rifle and intends to shoot heavy charges of BH and bore riding bullets. We've had conversations previously and yesterday his questions were based on how to accurately use his new force gauge to test bullet loading forces.
After providing the recommended process, he asked me why his spin jag was leaving a ring around his bullets he was checking loading forces with. Then he texted me a photo, which I'll try to pull off my cell phone later today and share. Its not hard to determine why the ring is there but...… it lead to another very interesting topic...……. loading jags, bullet testing and bullet expansion.

I realize he's a full time ballistician but didn't realize he worked along with nine other full time ballisticians. He mentioned that some bullets require repeated testing after 5,000 builds, others nearly never need additional testing. Interesting.

HOWEVER.... what they have found with muzzleloader bullets is, the loading jag itself can have a significant difference in bullet expansion with TIPPED BULLETS. They found that if the loading jag covers more of the ogive, the bullets expand as designed. Jags that cover less of the ogive and/or just past the tips create poor expansion.
He mentioned that they really didn't put too much effort into it, but all agreed that the loading force around the tip, likely compressed it (the tip) enough where the bullets didn't expand properly. Their fix at the lab was just to use a jag that covered more ogive. I told him...………. THAT..... should be a major concern and he/they should do more testing for an actual determination of why. THAT in itself could be a major problem for hunters and rather bullets expand properly and as designed, or not. I believe it got his attention...……….

There seems to always be something new to learn, consider and/or debate.

Thoughts?????

I will text him today to find out how his shooting went yesterday


Edit: Transferred the photo.

 

[Matthew323]

So some jags are crimping the hollow nose of these tipped bullets more tightly upon the tip than the manufacturer's intended, thus inhibiting expansion?

Perhaps, PROHIBITING EXPANSION?

Thus, allowing game to be deliberately wounded, instead of killed? Without the shooter/hunters knowledge?

Or, am I reading/interpreting your OP incorrectly?

 

[D55]

I believe the information is correct. I have Pittman and Hankins and spinjag also some I have made. When I did my own I pressed the jag onto the bullet Pittman Accumax and if the jag captured the bullet I changed the bevel to correctly match the ogive. One jag does not fit all bullets IMO. Also I load one hand medium to easy loading pressure.

 

[Hatchet Jack]

This is a very interesting thread. I modify my loading jags to fit my bullets better in order to load them easier and straighter by putting the pressure as far away from the tip area as possible. Also to keep from marring or distorting. Especially since I like to add a little more seating pressure than most. Never did I think it would help with expansion, but I guess it could. I would love to see a field test done on this.

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

Get the SpinJag for long, pointy bullets. It should work on most bullets.
https://www.spinjag.com/spinjag_for_parker_bullets.php
That jag on the left doesn't look like it would work good on anything, maybe a round ball, but even then it looks too sharp on the edge.

 

[Muggles]

What force gauges are you all using? After recent discussion with Encore I believe I got my bases covered. It appears even Spinjag could use some modification to be all inclusive.

 

[Lee 9]

Thank you, one of my short starters pinched the bullet right at the base of the plastic tip hard enough to pick up the bullet.

 

[ENCORE50A]

So some jags are crimping the hollow nose of these tipped bullets more tightly upon the tip than the manufacturer's intended, thus inhibiting expansion?

Perhaps, PROHIBITING EXPANSION?

Thus, allowing game to be deliberately wounded, instead of killed? Without the shooter/hunters knowledge?

Or, am I reading/interpreting your OP incorrectly?

Not certain anything is deliberate, but there appears credit to the theory that using a/the proper fitting jag seating bullets, "could" create expansion problems.

I believe the information is correct. I have Pittman and Hankins and spinjag also some I have made. When I did my own I pressed the jag onto the bullet Pittman Accumax and if the jag captured the bullet I changed the bevel to correctly match the ogive. One jag does not fit all bullets IMO. Also I load one hand medium to easy loading pressure.

All my loading jags are Pittman with the spin jag adaptor, but I've also had to modify each one. I found they were to shallow for the XLD bullets, so I had to drill ever so slightly in each one to keep from damaging tips.

What force gauges are you all using? After recent discussion with Encore I believe I got my bases covered. It appears even Spinjag could use some modification to be all inclusive.

The force gauge I use is a Wagner. The ballistician also uses a Wagner.
Mine is now discontinued as its manual. New are digital....
http://www.wagnerinstruments.com/products/force-gages/digital-force-gages/mark-10-m4

 

[Muggles]

Thanks again, George.

 

[Ninering62]

Get the SpinJag for long, pointy bullets. It should work on most bullets.
https://www.spinjag.com/spinjag_for_parker_bullets.php
That jag on the left doesn't look like it would work good on anything, maybe a round ball, but even then it looks too sharp on the edge.

The spinjag you provided the link to is from Bob Parker, I have one. Its fantastic. Cost was 24 or 25.00. To me, thats expensive, but it has worked flawlessly on all the diff bullets I'm shooting from Parker ( Black Max, E Max, MatchHunter, & BE's ) to the 2 types of Fury's, Hornady SST, & the PB ELR's as well. Zero probs or complaints. And Bob Parker is a great guy as well.

 

[Ninering62]

Thank you, one of my short starters pinched the bullet right at the base of the plastic tip hard enough to pick up the bullet.

I sprung for the Power Belt short starter kit with a bunch of brass interchangeable tips so I could modify them individually for what I want to use them for including cast lead HP's without damage or distortion.

 

[ENCORE50A]

The spinjag you provided the link to is from Bob Parker, I have one. Its fantastic. Cost was 24 or 25.00. To me, thats expensive, but it has worked flawlessly on all the diff bullets I'm shooting from Parker ( Black Max, E Max, MatchHunter, & BE's ) to the 2 types of Fury's, Hornady SST, & the PB ELR's as well. Zero probs or complaints. And Bob Parker is a great guy as well.

FYI......… The spin jag in the photo is from Parker, along with that ring marked Black Max bullet.

 

[LarryBud]

Very Interesting. It does make sense when you think about it.

Especially when we're taught to seat firmly om BH209.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Very Interesting. It does make sense when you think about it.

Especially when we're taught to seat firmly om BH209.

He was checking bullets for the loading force when he put that ring on that Black Max. The bullet pushed through the barrel at 23#'s.

 

[sdporter]

“For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction”. If you load with 20lbs of force, that force goes directly to the bullet. The trick is to spread that force out over a larger area.
The loading tool has to be softer than the bullet material, plastic, or pure lead, to distribute that force over a larger area, without getting the bullet to stick.
If you have a jag that matches the ogive exactly, that would eliminate the crimp, but, the bullet would get stuck in it, every time. Similar to a Morse taper. Way too much bearing surface touching. A lead lined tool would eventually do the same thing, grab the bullet, so that’s out.
Increasing the o.d. of the tool, and the i.d. and depth of the pocket of the loading tool can move the crimp further down the ogive, but on those loooong sleek bullets, if you’re not careful, you’re getting pretty thin in the walls of the loading tool, increasing the risk of flaring the loading tool and dragging the walls of the bore.
A harder tool, and you take the risk of scratching up bore surfaces because you run out of room for a nice radius on the o.d.and i.d.
A small, inexpensive, tough, plastic loading tool, similar to what PR Bullets sends with their bullets, might be the answer. It would have to be inexpensive because you would want to change it out every so often I would think, as eventually it would start to mold to the ogive causing problems.
interesting topic Encore. Way to bring up one more thing to lose sleep over. Ignorance is bliss.
Oh to just be a MZ hunter and not a shooter.
Most (hunters) definitely not all, would consider three shots in a 3” group at 100 yards good enough, and realistically, it is, if that’s the range you hunt at. I’ve said it myself, “I can hit a paper plate every time at 200 yards”. That’s 4 MOA, and that sucks.
It’s that quest for perfection, in every aspect of the sport, that drives most of us here on the forum I think. We like one big hole, not a bunch of little ones, on our paper, and in our game.

 

[Muggles]

A lot of food for thought, sdporter.

 

[sdporter]

A lot of food for thought, sdporter.

I get carried away sometimes

 

[SuperKirby]

“For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction”. If you load with 20lbs of force, that force goes directly to the bullet. The trick is to spread that force out over a larger area.
The loading tool has to be softer than the bullet material, plastic, or pure lead, to distribute that force over a larger area, without getting the bullet to stick.
If you have a jag that matches the ogive exactly, that would eliminate the crimp, but, the bullet would get stuck in it, every time. Similar to a Morse taper. Way too much bearing surface touching. A lead lined tool would eventually do the same thing, grab the bullet, so that’s out.
Increasing the o.d. of the tool, and the i.d. and depth of the pocket of the loading tool can move the crimp further down the ogive, but on those loooong sleek bullets, if you’re not careful, you’re getting pretty thin in the walls of the loading tool, increasing the risk of flaring the loading tool and dragging the walls of the bore.
A harder tool, and you take the risk of scratching up bore surfaces because you run out of room for a nice radius on the o.d.and i.d.
A small, inexpensive, tough, plastic loading tool, similar to what PR Bullets sends with their bullets, might be the answer. It would have to be inexpensive because you would want to change it out every so often I would think, as eventually it would start to mold to the ogive causing problems.
interesting topic Encore. Way to bring up one more thing to lose sleep over. Ignorance is bliss.
Oh to just be a MZ hunter and not a shooter.
Most (hunters) definitely not all, would consider three shots in a 3” group at 100 yards good enough, and realistically, it is, if that’s the range you hunt at. I’ve said it myself, “I can hit a paper plate every time at 200 yards”. That’s 4 MOA, and that sucks.
It’s that quest for perfection, in every aspect of the sport, that drive the bullets most of us here on the forum I think. We like one big hole, not a bunch of little ones, on our paper, and in our game.

It would seem to me that a 3D printer would be a great solution here. One would be able to copy the bullet shape and print a jag that is the perfect fit it off a material with some lubricating properties. When it starts to wear make a new one.