Barnes BCs...

[big6x6]

Looks as if PR Bullets isn't the only one that doesn't list accurate ballistic coefficients. Barnes and Hornady are right there with them. MAINLY Barnes! If nothing else they are listing bcs using BEST case senerio. Best case senerios being 100gr Pyrodex velocity(or less), high barometric pressure, low humidities, and low tempertures.

Barnes 225gr Expander
In my never ending quest for a low recoil load, I tried the 225gr .451 Expander. On a good note, this bullet shot GREAT at 2100-2300fps velocities. On a sour note, the advertised BC is 0.146. It's ACTUAL BC at 2077fps is 0.132. :cry: That's only a 10% inflation factor though.

Barnes 250gr Expander.
Previously, on 01/21/04, I calculated the bc of the 250gr Expander using my T/C Omega .50 and 100gr ffg Triple Se7en loose. MV average was 1875fps and temperature was 47 degrees. The BC that day, an average of three shots, was calculated to be 0.147, one of the worst BCs I ever seen. TODAY, with a MV of 2296 and temperature of 85 degrees the BC was 0.133! :shock: Barnes doesn't even know what the BC of this bullet is. In handgun form it is listed as 0.141 and in muzzleloader form it is listed as 0.189. There's a 33% difference in todays BCs and Barnes advertised 0.189. That 33% difference turns a 2357fps load with 1363ftlbs of energy at 200yds to one with 768ftlbs at 200yds!

Hornady 250gr .452 XTP/SST
Better check your exact point of impact at your maximum range with Hornady products too! Hornady list their 250gr .452 XTP with a BC of .146. Actually they are pretty close with this one and my hat is off to Hornady for actually listing an accurate BC! With a 2110fps muzzle velocity the BC I calculated was .148! Here's where the trouble starts. The advertised BC for the 250gr SST is .210. Now lets use our noggin some. Do you REALLY think one can improve the BC of an .452 250gr XTP by 30.5% JUST by adding a polymer tip? Of course you can't. Previously, on 04/29/04 using my Disc Elite and 100gr ffg Triple Se7en with a MV of 1928fps, I calculated the BC of the SST to be 0.184. Today, with a MV of 2171fps the BC came out to be .177! That's only a 12% inflation, and I can live with that as well.

Hornady 300gr .452 XTP/SST
Hornady list their .452 300gr XTP Mag to have a BC of 0.200 both as a handgun round and as a muzzleloader projectile. Barnes needs to take note here! Today with a 2023fps MV from the Savage 10ML-II the BC is actually .172, a 14% inflation. That's not too bad. The trouble is Hornady thinks they have a BC of .250 with the 300gr SST. That would be GREAT if it were so. On 02/18/04 using my T/C Omega .50, 100gr ffg Triple Se7en, and with a muzzle velocity of 1779fps I got a BC of .210, one of the best BCs I've calculated out of a muzzleloader. True to form it had the best BC today. With a MV of 2032fps the 300gr came in with a BC of .187. That's a 25% inflation factor! Even at Triple Se7en velocities the BC is inflated 16%.

Weight/weight comparison
So..Do ALL .451/.452 250gr projectiles have the same BC? The answer is of course, NO! And the difference can be VERY significant! Lets take the Hornady 250gr SST. Suppose you've been using it all year and midway thru the season, decide to swap to the 250gr Barnes Expander because of the 100% weight retention. You shoot your rifle which has a MV of 2357fps at 100yds and notice the point of impact is the same, approx 2 inches high at 100yds so you figure you are good to go. IN REALITY, the Barnes Expander will strike the target some four inches lower at 200yds and will have only 785ftlbs of energy where your 250gr SST had 1286ftlbs of energy! That 39% less energy at 200yds!

Solution
As you can see, BCs vary with velocity and atmospheric conditions. No way around THAT! The ONLY solution is to shoot your rifle at various distances and in conditions as close as possible to actual hunting conditions. Ain't no way I'm going to Texas whitetail hunting without shooting at the range at 25yds increments to 200yds! THAT way, I'll know EXACTLY where my bullet is striking the target. Let's face it folks..."Two inches high at 50" or "bullet in a pie plate at 100" just don't get it anymore.

 

[elmerdeer]

How do you calculate the bc of a bullet? And how does the weather affect it? What conditions are the best for highest bc? Thanks
Elmer.

 

[Grouse]

Looks as if PR Bullets isn't the only one that doesn't list accurate ballistic coefficients. IN REALITY, the Barnes Expander will strike the target some four inches lower at 200yds and will have only 785ftlbs of energy where your 250gr SST had 1286ftlbs of energy! That 39% less energy at 200yds!

Great report Big6x6 8) The Barnes bullets dont compare to the SST. Wow, have fun with Randy on this one.

 

[big6x6]

How do you calculate the bc of a bullet?

It's not that hard really! You need two chronographs and some brand or ballistic software. One chronograph at "zero" yards and one "X" distance downrange. I usually place my second chronograph at least 100yds downrange, today was 100yds. Shoot a bullet from chronograph to chronograph and get the readings of each and stick those two readings with the laser verified range into the ballistic software. THAT gives you the BC. It is basically just friction or air resistance.

And how does the weather affect it?

"Best case senerios being 100gr Pyrodex velocity(or less), high barometric pressure, low humidities, and low tempertures."

 

[big6x6]

Looks as if PR Bullets isn't the only one that doesn't list accurate ballistic coefficients. IN REALITY, the Barnes Expander will strike the target some four inches lower at 200yds and will have only 785ftlbs of energy where your 250gr SST had 1286ftlbs of energy! That 39% less energy at 200yds!

Great report Big6x6 8) The Barnes bullets dont compare to the SST. Wow, have fun with Randy on this one.

Thanks Grouse. Just telling it like it is.

 

[Nic_58]

Big6x6, have you ever calculated the B.C. of 245/285 gr. Barnes Spitfires? That was a very interesting report BTW!

Let's face it folks..."Two inches high at 50" or "bullet in a pie plate at 100" just don't get it anymore.

Boy, ain't that the truth!

 

[Doohan]

Pretty good report Chuck! I wonder how the 245 Spitfires would fall in this test? I assume very close to the SST's.


I am fairly sure I would perform a dramatic ballistic test on the second chrony at 100 yds! ... or at least that would be my luck!! Ever have any close calls?

I had a second chrony.. gave it to JD.. maybe we can try this on our next outing!

Very informative post!

JJ

 

[Anonymous]

Looks as if PR Bullets isn't the only one that doesn't list accurate ballistic coefficients. Barnes and Hornady are right there with them. MAINLY Barnes! If nothing else they are listing bcs using BEST case senerio. Best case senerios being 100gr Pyrodex velocity(or less), high barometric pressure, low humidities, and low tempertures.

Barnes 225gr Expander
In my never ending quest for a low recoil load, I tried the 225gr .451 Expander. One a good note, this bullet shot GREAT at 2100-2300fps velocities. On a sour note, the advertised BC is 0.146. It's ACTUAL BC at 2077fps is 0.132. :cry: That's only a 10% inflation factor.

Barnes 250gr Expander.
Previously, on 01/21/04, I calculated the bc of the 250gr Expander using my T/C Omega .50 and 100gr ffg Triple Se7en loose. MV average was 1875fps and temperature was 47 degrees. The BC that day, an average of three shots, was calculated to be 0.147, one of the worst BCs I ever seen. TODAY, with a MV of 2296 and temperature of 85 degrees the BC was 0.133!

The gentleman from Alabama has apparently found an official glue substitute for his own range use. :shock:

It is a bit silly to cast aspersions on Barnes by comparing them them to PR Bullets. A 260 gr. Dead Center .40 / 50 has a stated BC of .375. Actual BC is in the .245 range. Inflating a BC by 50 - 60% as does PR Bullets makes both Barnes and Hornady look very, very, very honest by comparison.

The Hornady 300 gr. SST (or T/C Shockwave) has a stated BC of .250. Now, if you think that is a bit higher than what most shooters will get, you are of course correct. However, PR Bullet ALSO makes a 300 gr. .45 Dead Center, polymer tip, SAME #2S ogive. Additionally, there is a rebated boat tail touted as meaningful. The PR Bullet published BC is .336-- right in every card supplied with Dead Centers. Yet, the .250 BC Hornady 300 gr. SST actually flies a bit flatter than the .336 .45/ 50 Dead Center. The entire industry can be considered pikers compared to the Dead Center BC's. :shock: Comparing Hornady and Barnes to PR Bullet is silly.

Your own shooting could be subject to the same scrutiny. One day Chuck says a Barnes 250MZ has a BC of .133, another time .147. Would it be fair to say Chuck inflated his BC's by over 10%? Of course not.

What is being illuminated here is the problem of static BC's. Barnes uses 200 yard average BC's, and naturally their own shooting is done in Utah. I know the person that has done the majority of their muzzleloading bullet BC work, and we are talking moderate 90 - 100 grain Pyrodex loads, and 200 yard Utah testing averages.

The testing done by Olin (Winchester 260 gr. Platinum Tip) is as thorough as I've ever seen, right here in Illinois on Olin's own Doppler radar range. That is as thorough as it gets, the average BC is tracked from the muzzle to 200 yards, and its average BC value changes yard by yard. Olin used ten test muzzleloaders to get their published .200 BC for the Platinum Tip. It is a 200 yard static BC, and the charge used was 90 grains by volume of Pyrodex RS-- they felt that was a representative load when that bullet was developed, and it was at that time.

The Buffalo 375 grain SSB has a published BC of .296. Buffalo paid to have their BC's independently determined. That bullet was shot from a Remington 700ML with three Pyrodex pellets, the BC is a 100 yard chrono-to-chrono average. No Dead Center bullet made has a BC that high, yet no Dead Center has a published BC of LESS than .300; not one. The conclusion is obvious.

For static BC's to have merit, they must be married to a specific muzzle velocity and range. For static BC's to be more accurate than that, all ambient conditions must be factored in. The ballistic programs default to the standard military atmosphere, and any change from that has to be put in manually comporting to exact ambient conditions that the shooting takes place.

Anyone can look at the Hornady published ballistics for SST's published in their catalog. If you plug in the velocities with your Oehler progam, you will get an output of .2502 using the muzzle and 100 yard velocities. Plug in the 100 yard and 200 yard velocities, you get the same .2502 BC. It can't be, but that is the problem with a static BC.

Not all bullet manufacturers use the Ingalls G1 model or values, to add to the confusion. ICAO values are common as well, but most American bullet makers don't use them-- as "the number" is automatically lower.

Nothing beats a Dopper Radar range, which is why the military ceased use of the Aberdeen Proving Ground for small arms development. Radar ranges is all they use.

But, for muzzleloading, that is a problem. Most muzzleloaders do not even chronograph their own loads, so they never have any velocity to work with at all. And, naturally, the load you are working with you decide on, and is unique to your rifle and your personal ambient conditions.

Barnes and Hornady will both readily admit that Sierra is a big step ahead of them in the BC department, by at least using BC's that are somewhat connected to a velocity. No loose bullet has any clue as to how it will be used, at what velocity it will be used-- Sierra at least tries to address that for the reloader (and the muzzleloading reloader), though perhaps a bit sadly, they have never participated in the muzzleloading bullet market.

 

[Grouse]

Ok Randy, We already know Prbullet has inflated BC'S. The SST is a flatter shooting bullet then the Barnes. This can be a substantial benefit on say a Pronghorn hunt. In the Savage, the 260 DeadCenter might just be a better bullet for down range shooting? Or should i say a flatter bullet? I need to start comparing bullets at 100 and at 200yds. We'll see what happens when it cools down some.

 

[big6x6]

Your own shooting could be subject to the same scrutiny. One day Chuck says a Barnes 250MZ has a BC of .133, another time .147. Would it be fair to say Chuck inflated his BC's by over 10%? Of course not.

The reason is in the third paragraph:

MV average was 1875fps and temperature was 47 degrees then compared to a MV of 2296 and temperature of 85 degrees today.

 

[typical10]

You gotta love it! :mrgreen:

 

[Spitpatch]

I'll make 'em group on the range,

Know my trajectory,

Maake the first shot count----even in practice,

Ask the Lord to guide my shot,

AND WATCH 'EM FALL! :shock:

Seriously, I do enjoy reading even when I don't quite understand it all.

 

[Anonymous]

Ok Randy, We already know Prbullet has inflated BC'S. The SST is a flatter shooting bullet then the Barnes. This can be a substantial benefit on say a Pronghorn hunt. In the Savage, the 260 DeadCenter might just be a better bullet for down range shooting? Or should i say a flatter bullet? I need to start comparing bullets at 100 and at 200yds. We'll see what happens when it cools down some.

I've already done exactly that with 300SST's and 260 Dead Centers. Using the same 45 gr. charge of 5744, shooting at both 100 yards and 200 yards, the bullet holes from both were right next to each other. Their real world flight characteristics are interchangeable. What Hornady calls a .25 BC and PR Bullet calls a .375 BC fly the same. :shock:

One might think that there would be at least a muzzle velocity increase with a 260 grain bullet. Not so-- pure lead clocks slower than jacketed bullets, and the 260DC and 300 gr. SST MV's are within a few fps of each other.

As for the pronghorn hunt, no-- the 260 DC fails. No way will the supplied PR Bullet orange sabot (a 3 year old, obsolete blend) come close to the performance of the MMP BLUE. To get cooking with N110 hot charges you need to trash the PR Bullet orange, and sub in the Blue 50 / 40 MMPs for starters. That helps, but soon-- you still run out of gas. Past 2150 fps or so, pure lead starts to deform in flight. Accurate 2300 fps loads have not been achievable with pure lead, at least by me with all the shooting I've done to date.

With a Barnes Original 300 gr. Semi-Spitzer, they sure are. And, the Barnes .458 Semi-Spitzer flies better than any Dead Center made. Velocity AND BC, and terminal energy-- the comparison is laughable.

Try it yourself, and prepare to be amazed. I was! :shock:

 

[Anonymous]

The reason is in the third paragraph:

Partly the reason-- more precisely: you need air density, barometric pressure, and relative humidity values included as well.

The ICAO values are generally significantly lower than the std. American values. Both use 59 degrees, and sea level. The difference is air density, barometric pressure, and relative humidity-- and that gives you a lower BC per ICAO atmosphere.

 

[big6x6]

As for the pronghorn hunt, no-- the 260 DC fails.

FAILS? Based on the supplied SABOT? I throw away EVERY supplied sabot anyway! If THAT'S the reason the 260gr DC fails, then ALL Barnes .458s fail because they are supplied SABOT-LESS. Also, 2150fps is PLENTY to take a pronghorn to 200yds with that bullet. At around 2000fps a 240gr .40 Dead Center has a BC of .211 a GREAT BC for a muzzleloading projectile. Even giving the 260gr D/C that SAME BC(it actually will be better)at 2150fps it fits your six inch kill zone PERFECTLY to 200yds! In fact it flies flatter than my 200gr SST/Disc Elite load that performed wonderfully at 208yds on that same animal! :shock:

Try it yourself, and prepare to be amazed. I was!

I am and we'll see how the BC for that bullet holds up! I think that BC is IMPOSSIBLE for a .458 300gr bullet. If it cracks .220, I'll be surprised.

Partly the reason-- more precisely: you need air density, barometric pressure, and relative humidity values included as well.

I always use 29.92 inHg, standard atmospheric pressure, actual temperature, and relative humidity 50%.

 

[Anonymous]

FAILS? Based on the supplied SABOT?

Fails to shoot as accurately or as flat as I can shoot the Barnes Original 300 gr. .458 Semi-Spitzer in my 10ML-II's.

End of story. :wink:

 

[big6x6]

Fails to shoot as accurately or as flat as I can shoot the Barnes Original 300 gr. .458 Semi-Spitzer in my 10ML-II's.

I'll buy that!

 

[Anonymous]

Sold to the man with the red truck-- all proceeds go to Wolfhound's future server fund.

 

[Doohan]

Sold to the man with the red truck-- all proceeds go to Wolfhound's future server fund.

That was funny!

Good debate guys!

 

[big6x6]

BC for Barnes 300gr .458 Semi-Spitzer #457010 on 07/31/05 is....



.200 FLAT!