Chuck, JJ, or Grouse

[Busta]

Could you guys please measure some Blackhorn out in 100 grain volume charges and tell us what it WEIGHS, please. I thought I read it somewhere in Chucks report and on Toby's, I'll be danged if I can find it now. I thought Chuck said it weighed somewhere around 65 grains weight, and I thought Toby said it weighs just under 70 grains for a 100 grain by VOLUME.

They say the mind is the second thing to go, I can't remember the first. :?

Thanks, if you guys have time before the Hog Bash I would appreciate it. I hope my powder gets here before the weekend.

Good luck guys!

 

[big6x6]

Here ya go!

OTHER INFO...
I weighed both 100gr BY VOLUME ffg Triple Se7en and Blackhorn 209 yesterday. No tapping, stirring, seances, etc.. Just leveled off the charge with the U-view measure. The Triple Se7en weighs 69.33gr BY WEIGHT while Blackhorn 209 weighed 67.08gr BY WEIGHT.
_________________

 

[Busta]

Thanks Chuck.

Your 777 weight is a great deal lighter than than what I recall mine weighing (77 IIRC), but I tap X ammount of times to settle the charge, and that can add 5-10 grains to the equasion. I don't perform a se`ance (sp?) though. :lol: I have noticed also that not all powder measures are calibrated to throw the exact same charge. The two types I have are about 5-10 grains different at a 100 gr charge.

I think another thing that would vary weights, would be relative humidity. I would guess that 777 draws moisture once the container is open. The 777 pellets are not sealed from the get go, and probably why I never had much success getting consistant groups. I think they draw moisture like a sponge.

This is the two types of powder measures I use.

Good luck this weekend!

 

[old/new]

Busta,
Were you thinking of weighing your charges of 209? I was thinking of obtaining accuracy normally with a measurer but then seeing if additional accuracy can be squeezed by weighing.

 

[sabotloader]

old/new

Actually, I am thinking you might be right on weighing charges of the BH209. Since it is pretty much a progressive centerfire type powder weighing especially with the heavier projectiles might produce better results.

I guess we wailt util someone tries it and lets us know...

 

[old/new]

Sabotloader,
Exactly. I weigh when I reload centerfire ammo. And 209 seems to be a type of extruded powder, so why not. Although it could be a little tedious. I guess you could make up your favorite load at home on the bench and put them in a container (like a speed loader).

 

[lane]

Sabotloader,
Exactly. I weigh when I reload centerfire ammo. And 209 seems to be a type of extruded powder, so why not. Although it could be a little tedious. I guess you could make up your favorite load at home on the bench and put them in a container (like a speed loader).

You mean something like a clear plastic tube, something that could hold just over 150g of loose powder, with a water-proof, air tight screw on cap??? 8)

And we could call them Black Powder Tubes

Got Black Powder Tubes?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... L.m315.lVI

 

[frontier gander]

I love Lanes black powder tubes. Great to fill up, store and then grab a handful and go shooting.

 

[Busta]

Busta,
Were you thinking of weighing your charges of 209? I was thinking of obtaining accuracy normally with a measurer but then seeing if additional accuracy can be squeezed by weighing.

old/new,

Yes, I will see how accurate thrown volume charges by weighing 10. If there is enough deviation, I will weigh charges when shooting for groups.

 

[big6x6]

No doubt weighing powder charges would result in somewhat more uniform powder charges, I've been doing that in 10ML-IIs for years but MAINLY out of NECESSITY. I started out weighing Triple Se7en even before that to shoot in a Disc Elite for a little more accuracy. But you know there is just something fun about pouring out some powder at the range, or in the field that I really enjoy! There is also something to be said for being able to increase or decrease powder charges where ever one happens to be without a scale. As many of you will soon see...Blackhorn 209 IS the most uniform blackpowder substitute ever made and measures AMAZINGLY consistant with nothing more than a volumetric measure. And when you consider I shot 12, 3-shot groups with 4 different projectiles that AVERAGED 1.42 inches from my KRB without even looking for best accuracy using nothing more than a U-View measure, why ruin the fun?

 

[Hulions]

I measured some 777 last night. 110 gr. by volume, tapped the scale to settle the powder and leveled it off. I did this ten times and got an average of 84.1 gr. by weight. Does this sound about right? I shoot a T/C Omega and a 250 gr. shockwave. What kind of velocity should I be getting? Thanks again for the help guys. Have any of you noticed a big difference in acuracy when weighing 777.

 

[Busta]

Hulions,

That sounds real close to what I get as far as weight. My tapped and settled 100 grain charge of 777 is real close to 77 grains. Add 7.7 grains weight to that for your extra 10 grains and that would be 84.7 grains weight.

You came up with 84.1 grains weight. I converted your 110 grain volume charge down to 100 grains volume and came up with 76.455 grains weight.

Of course 777 FFG and 777 FFFG will vary some due to density, and whether you are measuring coarse grains from the top of a jug or fine dust from the bottom of the barrel.

Like Chuck said, the extruded BH209 will be uniform from the top of the jug all the way to the bottom. You gotta like that.

Just checked my tracking # on my Blackhorn 209. It's on the BBT, out for delivery.

 

[Doohan]

66.3 was my average.

 

[Busta]

Well I just measured out 36 100 grain volume charges. Did I mention afternoon shift sucks? Back to days on Monday.

Ok, back to B209. As I said, measured 36 100 grain volume charges using the T/C brass and the T/C U-View. All charges weighed on a beam scale.

First the T/C brass measure with thrown 100 grain volume charges scraped level. The 12 weights are as follows.

68.4
69.3
69.3
69.9
68.7
69.0
69.7
68.7
68.7
67.8
68.0
69.1

Average is 68.88, with an extreme spread (bold) of 2.1 grain weight.



Thrown 100 grain volume charges using T/C U-View, scraped level.

68.5
69.5
68.2
68.5
67.6
67.8
67.8
68.0
67.4
68.3
68.1
67.3

Average is 68.08, with an extreme spread (bold)of 2.2 grains weight.


T/C brass measure, 100 grain volume charges tapped (10 times), settled, and scraped level. These were a little more accurate, but still varied more than expected.

70.2
70.1
70.1
70.3
69.4
69.7
69.6
69.3
69.5
70.4
69.5
70.4

Average is 69.87, with an extreme spread (bold) of 1.1 grains weight.

I never weighed the same powder twice, all measurements were taken, one after the other just like if you were shooting the previous charge. After all readings were taken, the powder was returned to it's container.

For me, I will be tapping and settling the charges if using a powder measure, or weighing and placing charges in vials.

JJ, what measure and scale were you using? I don't know why our averages would be 2-3 grains different. You and Chuck must have the same powder measure and scale.

These are the powder measures that I used.

 

[big6x6]

I used the T/C U-view.

 

[old/new]

Wouldn't you consider these differences insignificant?

 

[Busta]

Wouldn't you consider these differences insignificant?

Possibly, I am not a smokeless guy and have never used an extruded powder like B209. I used to reload for my .44 Mag 25 years ago, and shotgun 35 years ago, but used different types of powder.

I am hoping some of the smokeless guys that use and extruded powder will chime in and let me know if those weight variations are to be expected, I really don't know. The thing that had me wondering is a spread of over 1.3 grains weight from one charge to the next and the overall spread, all things being equal.

I know one thing, this powder is hard as heck and does not crush so there is no fine dust in the bottom of the container. I can also see the need for a hot primer to penetrate the hard coating.

 

[lane]

I have a Theory/Idea



IMO This is VERY slow burning smokeless powder, that (probably) should be compressed with everything you've got, to produce the best groups/chrono results.

I have an idea that BH209 is just a slightly modified (Western Powder's) Accurate smokeless 5744:

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/5744.htm

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerC ... %20372.pdf

http://www.accuratepowder.com/loaddata_ ... _rifle.htm

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerC ... apdoor.pdf

http://www.accuratepowder.com/loaddata_ ... solete.htm

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerC ... %20365.pdf

I think that "coating" on the powder is an inhibitor to slow it down. If you look at the load data for (Western Powder's) Accurate 5744, see how they use it for Obsolete Black Powder cartriges/breech loaders. AND check out the pressures in PSI....Very low.

Look at the 45-120 loads and pressures involved...notice the "Very Tight Crimp" needed for proper ignition:
"Please note that a firm crimp is necessary for good powder ignition."

Must use a tite crimp, must be a sealed breech, must be compressed Very Firmly, must have a tight fitting sabot, must use a hot primer.....= BH209/AKA 5744 :shock: :wink:

And there you have it.....BH209

That's my best guess :wink:

 

[Critter]

I have thoughts along that same line Lane. 5744 worked great for me in several old BP rifle calibers until I switched completely to BP. I might have some left in the shop to compare to BH209 when I get some.

 

[NimrodRx]

I have a Theory/Idea



IMO This is VERY slow burning smokeless powder, that (probably) should be compressed with everything you've got, to produce the best groups/chrono results.

I have an idea that BH209 is just a slightly modified (Western Powder's) Accurate smokeless 5744:

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/5744.htm

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerC ... %20372.pdf

http://www.accuratepowder.com/loaddata_ ... _rifle.htm

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerC ... apdoor.pdf

http://www.accuratepowder.com/loaddata_ ... solete.htm

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerC ... %20365.pdf

I think that "coating" on the powder is an inhibitor to slow it down. If you look at the load data for (Western Powder's) Accurate 5744, see how they use it for Obsolete Black Powder cartriges/breech loaders. AND check out the pressures in PSI....Very low.

Look at the 45-120 loads and pressures involved...notice the "Very Tight Crimp" needed for proper ignition:
"Please note that a firm crimp is necessary for good powder ignition."

Must use a tite crimp, must be a sealed breech, must be compressed Very Firmly, must have a tight fitting sabot, must use a hot primer.....= BH209/AKA 5744 :shock: :wink:

And there you have it.....BH209

That's my best guess :wink:

BINGO! That's my theory as well.

The thing I don't get though is how they did it with less pressure than what smokeless generates. In a conversation a few weeks back with one of the "techs." at Western, he told me that they are able to do this and still generate nearly 1/3 less pressure than a comparable smokeless powder.

Go figure...