45 Elite and BH @ Strychnine Gravel Pile

[sabotloader]

June 24, 5:00am - grabbed the Elite and headed for the gravel piles on Strychnine Creek - needed to beat the heat (although i shouldn't complain after reading Semi's post).

The mission was to fill in the missing velocity information. I wanted to shoot the same loads of BH from the gun and chrono those results to add to the spreadsheet I have been building.

The BH loads did just about as I expected, the were all slower velocities than T7 until you reach the upper volumes. About at the 110 grain mark they started to show they were going to catch up. At the 120 grain load they basically got better than T7-2f and blew T7=3f out of the water...

Here is the completed table, and the table is also updated in the old post...

These loads were all volume loads thrown on site. Again I have suggested before I know my volume measure is always somewhat light vs actual weight.

Then for humor.... it has often been said "give a monkey a gun and enough bullets he will eventually shoot a good group" I think I qualify...

And one last thing to get my flim-flamming in (I already forgot the correct word) I would like to add thse to pics...

Working off the tailgate at Strychnine...

And a look at a Lehigh .40/185 grain in a MMP sabot....

 

[Spitpatch]

DUDE...LOOK AT ALL THE MONEY YOU JUST WENT THROUGH!!!!

 

[cayuga]

that is some impressive shooting with that BlackHorn 209.

 

[sabotloader]

Spit

DUDE...LOOK AT ALL THE MONEY YOU JUST WENT THROUGH!!!!

Ah come on!!! Please do not remind me...

I love everything about BH but the price. In this Elite - even with FPJ's and used ones at that there was far less blow-back in the breech area, no swabbing and it shot great, measures really easy, doesn't settle hardly at all... It is a great powder...

Now here's the problem, one of the big reason I gave up shooting centerfire - it got to expensive to shoot em... I loved shooting centerfire... I would shoot my 300 win mag all day and I shot it a lot.... but you can not afford to buy ammo for it nor can can you load it that cheaply anymore especially if you consider your time is worth something. Shooting a ML solved that problem. Plus it slowed me down... I shoot to fdast as it is and with a centerfire it was easy to shoot a bunch in 15 minutes. Another complaint you can get a real pound of smokelless powder cheaper than 10 onces of BH.

The final thing that makes me not go the BH root... I just open jugs 7 and 8 of T7 on Monday for this shooting season and the season started in December when I opened 1 & 2... Can you imagine the cost of my shooting... nevermind I do not want to know...

T7 works very well for me... Just wish more people would burn BH so Hodg would lower the price of T7...

 

[Spitpatch]

Loader.....you need to scope out the Wally World year end sales on 777.!
it's what i do...
As much as I like BH..and shoot it a lot..I love 777.
It kicks butt in my 50 cal Elite and cleans up with windex. Maybe just me but I like the simplicity and economy of that whole idea. You know...windex???Who woulda thought... Makes me feel like I am getting by with something, you know...cheatin' the system.
I some of my rifles... 777 is more accurate. But my 45....whew!!
Gosh....I probably made someone mad :?
sorry

BTW I love spread sheets! They say more in one page than you can say in an entire chapter of a book. You are quite good at Excel.

 

[sabotloader]

Spit

Amen!

It is all a matter of economics - plus I can steal my wifes windex and it awesome stuff and I do not even pay for it. Well, nevermind bout that guess i may....

Yep! I do the Wally worlds thing myself, but even then - out here you can git T7 off a retail shelf for $20...

Anda pound is more then 10 ozs here in Idaho...

 

[Spitpatch]

Anda pound is more then 10 ozs here in Idaho...

I hear That.....

 

[rt_con]

sabotloader: Very interesting post ! After your head-to-head comparision, I have to rethink my use of BH209 vs T7.

Like Spitpatch, I have a .50 Elite that shoots lights out with T7, but I have been disappointed with the accuracy with BH209. However, my .45 Elite likes BH209 with everything I've tried in it. So right now.. it looks like T7 in the .50... BH209 in the .45

Great write up... great pics... great post all around. :yeah:

 

[flint head]

:wink:

 

[Busta]

sabotloader,

Thanks for posting that, I think my 1:20 twist may be spitting out bullets faster that the 1:30. I know there are seeral other factors that are totally different in our locations such as, elevation, humidity, temperature to name a few. I am also using the NFPJ conversion with my own addition (no-mod) of a 6.5mm x 4.5mm x 1mm o-ring that helps with ignition and controlling blowback.

Just curious what Lot# your Blackhorn 209 is? I am getting around 200 FPS faster speeds (2300 FPS to 2400 FPS) on average with the 200 grain saboted bullets with ProChrono 10 ft in front of the muzzle. This is with Lot # 0107098.

I have kept a couple containers from my first case to test against newer powder occasionally, lot # 040308 is about 50 FPS slower, but the container has been opened several times in the last couple months and it is over a year old. I still have one unopend container that will get the same testing next year, to check shelf life.

 

[sabotloader]

Busta

I think my 1:20 twist may be spitting out bullets faster that the 1:30

Just curious why you would think twist rate might effect muzzle velocity - bore size for sure, but twist rate... unless the twist might slow the bullet down... take longer to exit the barrel allowing the progressive burning to build more pressure... Totally agree with all those other factors you listed....

I am also using the NFPJ conversion with my own addition (no-mod) of a 6.5mm x 4.5mm x 1mm o-ring that helps with ignition and controlling blowback.

With BH and a FPJ - blowback with BH was really minimal - it was great and I was even using 'used' jackets. After 12 & 24 shots, when I needed to ream out my BP, there was only slight discoloration in the breech area - it was great... When I shot those last 12 shots of T7 is when I really got it dirty...

Just curious what Lot# your Blackhorn 209 is?

I really do not find anything on my 3 bottles that say 'lot #' I do have a date stamp on the bottom of the bottle... and it is:

Bottle #1 052808 ( that is the one I am shooting)
Bottle #2 040408
Bottle #3 040408

I agree with everyone that says BH is the real deal, but the cost per ounce is terrible and not worth the added benefits to me. Those added benefits are really minimal for myself. I do wish you would convert everybody to BH though them T7 might go down...

The other problem is I really like to shoot, I use to shoot CF as much as I do ML's now but gave that up because of the cost and time to reload. Shooting a ML freed all that up. Now, I can not even remember the last time i shot my 3 win mag actually any CF. But like I said in the post i opened bottles 7 & 8 since Demeber Monday when I started this experiment and if you figure if I go downtown I can buy a pound for $20 dollars right now... Last year it was $18 everything is going up.

 

[kevinbrian]

Great post and pics!! Great report.

 

[big6x6]

Very informative and useful post Pete! Well done! 8)

 

[james 14]

I'm surprised at the results from the 3f powder. I would've thought there was a higher velocity increase over 2F and certainly would'nt expect it to get slower as more was added.
What causes this?
I'll have to rethink my usage of T7 3F.

 

[sabotloader]

james 14

The 200 grain bullet was to light... it got out the barrel to quickly.

I get the opposit results when shooting a 300 grain bullet...

 

[Lee 9]

I wish I could figure out why some of us are getting 200 FPS more than you with BH209 actually I am not getting quite as much as you are with T7.
I realize there are a lot of variables but 200FPS is a lot of difference.
Do you suppose its wad pressure or the tightnes of the sabot bullet combination? Lee

 

[james 14]

sabotloader,

What was the barrel length on that gun? Seems that a longer barrel would allow more burn time for the powder and prevent a loss in fps. My gun has a 28". But that still doesn't make any sense if 3F is supposed to burn faster. Apparently, at 2200 fps it's enough time to burn the 2F...why not the 3F?
One thing I wonder about 3F is if it's meant to be used in smaller quantities. Being a finer powder means there's less air and I've seen studies where a more complete burn is acheived by a "looser" packed charge...even acheiving faster bullet flight with the bullet left .25" off the charge.
I did notice a LOT more fouling when shooting the 200gr Shockwaves with the sabot provided than with any other load....including the 200gr xtp in the tan MMP. Powerbelts left the least and I could almost clean the barrel completely with two spit patches. That seems to suggest I had a lot of unburnt powder left with the Shockwaves...and probably why my groups were very erratic.

 

[sabotloader]

james 14

Hope this makes some sense....

It is a 26" barrel. The difference being that T7-3f reaches peak pressure far quicker than 2f and it creates greater pressure than an equal amount of T7-2f.

Because it (3f) reaches peak pressure so much faster than does 2f and it creates a far greater pressure it moves the projectile further up the barrel quicker than 2f. Especially a light bullet.

Because of the light weight projectile it is out the bore before all of the 3f powder is burned... in other words I am shooting unused powder out the barrel. The opposit effect happens as the projectile weight moves beyond the 250 grain weight. The greater spike continues with 3f but because of the increased weight it remains in the bore longer and more powder is truly burned in the barrel and the pressure spike continious up creating a greater velocity and less unburnt powder out the bore.

Lee

I wish I could figure out why some of us are getting 200 FPS more than you with BH209 actually I am not getting quite as much as you are with T7.

I realize there are a lot of variables but 200FPS is a lot of difference.
Do you suppose its wad pressure or the tightnes of the sabot bullet combination?

I still think the biggest factor is elevation and the thickness of the air... When I compare my velocities with Toby's published velocities in the neighboring Montana we are pretty close yet neither of us reach the velocities Grouse, Busta, and you achieve

I am a hunter not a target shooter, so for my self 200 addition FPS at the muzzle and then spread across 200 yards really is not that much. Now if I were shooting ranges beyond 200 yards it certainly could be. Next, 200 fps greater in my normal hunting range is really nothing. Bullet accuracy and performance at impact is a far greater importance. I would bet that my average shot in 40 years of hunting in Idaho might on elk be 75 yards and my average shot on a whitetail might be 40 yards. My max self imposed hunting range with a ML is 200 yards... and I do not even bother to use a pointy bullet because my average shot is so much less. I know I can harvest @ 200 with the projectile I use and I know I have to make some sight picture adjustment @ that to do so, but @ 200 I will have time to do that or I will not take the shot. So for me 200fps greater is not a big deal.

When I was trying to match Grouse's velocity with the same rifle here in Idaho - I tried a lot of different sabots and different pressure on the powder with the loads. It did not happen - I could only approach 2300 fps while Grouse was getting 24+.

 

[james 14]

I understand the unburnt powder out of the bore. I can see how that creates a plateau for velocity and how velocity can decrease with too much powder in the charge. I don't see how 2F can keep increasing while 3F decreases.
I'm trying to think this out.....think I got it......3F peaks earlier so it takes less time to get to max velocity. But barrel size...being a 45...prohibits all powder from burning at once and can actually weigh down the powder that is burning...because it tries to ignite at once.
2F gets to max velocity slower giving more barrel time to burn powder. A slower accelration of the bullet but it still ends up faster than the 3F that is immediately going top speed and doesn't have a long enough power stroke to get the bullet out of the gun at top speed.

I don't know if I really understand or not but at least it's more plausible to me at this point. Do you think a hotter primer could aid in better ignition of all the powder? Maybe even a 45 designed with a barrel that is wider in the area that holds the powder?

 

[sabotloader]

james 14

Do you think a hotter primer could aid in better ignition of all the powder? Maybe even a 45 designed with a barrel that is wider in the area that holds the powder?

That is very poosible... I am using a low temp primer - it is a lot easier on the breech plug and for myself it aids in the lack of the famous T7 'crud ring'

A slower accelration of the bullet but it still ends up faster than the 3F that is immediately going top speed and doesn't have a long enough power stroke to get the bullet out of the gun at top speed.

I would change your sentence just a bit...

The slower accelration of the bullet up the bore allows T7-2f to burn a greater amount of powder which will end up increasing the velocity at the bore and because of this it ends up faster than the 3F that is almost immediately going top speed and doesn't have a long enough power stroke to get the bullet out of the gun at top speed.

Anyway I think that is pretty close....