Full bore lead conical in a CVA

[NewlyMinted]

I've been trying to develop a load of full bore lead in my CVA Accura and am running into problems reducing the size of my group. I always start my session with 4 300g Hornady SST since they give a tight group and I can judge how the conditions are that day.

So far the closest group I've had is with the 348g lead Powerbelt and think I'm close to getting that figured out, but they are almost twice the cost of the Great Plains or Maxi-Hunter.

I don't have tumbling on the GP or MH conicals, all my holes are perfect round punches through the paper and cardboard. But starting at 65g Pyrodex RS and moving up, can't find a way to get the groups from seeming to be random. On the Maxi Hunter I went all the way up to 110g.

These two conicals are lubed and although are tough to start passed the false muzzle, slide more easily down the barrel than anything else I've fired. Is that a problem?

I was told to apply about 80lbs of pressure to the packing of the conical and that didn't seem to help (and might be related to a misfire I had). I was also told a wad was useful, but haven't incorporated that yet.

Is 1:28 able to shoot full bore conicals out to 100yds accurately? Am I working up the load in the wrong way?

I feel like I'm missing something! Thanks for any help!

 

[dbowling]

Save yourself some time/money and order some No Excuse conicals or Bullshop. You can get them sized to your bore and they perform very well on game.
Start with 65-70 gr of preferred powder and work up from there, might also try over the powder wad as in some guns it really improves accuracy.
You just have to put in the time/money to try different loads till you find the combo your gun likes, just make sure your consistent with your loading, if you swab between shots make sure you do it the same every shot etc.

 

[Busta]

Yep, what he said. ↑↑↑

Don't waste your time with the Maxi, Great Plains, or PowerBelts.

First, check your owners manual for maximum weight bullets. My 2011 Optima Pistol bullet list is as follows. Any PowerBelt can be used, up to 300 grain saboted bullets, up to 400 grain Lead Conical. This is kind of screwed up, because I know they make a 444 grain PowerBelt in a flat point. So if that is OK, so should the 420 grain No Excuses be OK?

Here is the 444 grain flat point PowerBelt, the only PowerBelt that I would ever shoot an animal with, and it would be far from first choice. The picture is wrong as it shows a much lighter hollow point, and those bullets will be way over $2 a piece after shipping.

https://shop.cva.com/Powerbelt/AC1573.asp

Call Dave at No Excuses, and get some of his new 420 grain bullets for your 1:28 twist rifle, if they are OK to use. They would be just about perfect for your twist

I remember reading that he has a new CVA that he had been using to develop loads with. Mainly his new swaged lead saboted bullets, but I'm sure he has a recipe for his new 420 grain full bore conicals as well.

Dave stops in here every now and then, so you might be able to get a response through PM? much better and faster to E-Mail or call him. Great bullets and great guy to do business with as well.

He also has sizing kits to figure out your bore diameter for best loading and shooting. I prefer 0.001" over bore (land to land) diameter for hunting. It keeps your bullet from migrating off your charge, especially important if you're climbing around in the Rockies, or going up and down trees in the back 40 for that matter.

I use Vegetable Fiber Gasket Wads between the powder and bullet for best results.

Make sure these at OK first, but that is going to be your best option of what is available for a 1:28 twist.

https://www.muzzleloading-bullets.com/p ... 20-grains/


I can't and won't tell you what to do, but for me if a 444 Grain PowerBelt copper plated conical is OK to shoot, then a 420 grain soft lead conical should be too.

 

[GM54-120]

That is what i was thinking too. 420gr NEs and a veggie wad. No more than 100gr of Pyrodex or 80gr of BH209. A 1-28 should handle that just fine. I would also try lubed wool wads just to see if your rifle likes them better.

50 of the .503 NEs is under $40 shipped. $27.95 and $11 shipping. Not sure on the exact size you need but he suggests the .503s. The .502 is probably ok though.

 

[NewlyMinted]

Awesome Info! thank you very much.

I've ordered the sizing pack (which happily is the 420g), and emailed Dave to see if he's played the 30" barrel on the Accura V2 and had any starting points.

 

[shguns]

I do know the No Excuses has been playing with his new sabot offering in a CVA rifle, so he may have conical info too.

 

[Busta]

Awesome Info! thank you very much.

I've ordered the sizing pack (which happily is the 420g), and emailed Dave to see if he's played the 30" barrel on the Accura V2 and had any starting points.

Just make sure to read through the sizing pack instructions. I would suggest the remove breech plug and check on a clean bore vs the seat bullet on powder and shoot it out method. You can always shoot them out later. Otherwise you'll have to clean the rifles bore thoroughly between each bullet.

Figure out the clean bore best fit first following the directions. Then if you want to shoot them out, start with the ones that are too large first and work back down. That way you can determine which size loads best on a fouled bore.

https://www.muzzleloading-bullets.com/s ... tructions/

 

[Chris W.]

I had an older CVA Optima that would shoot consistant groups of 1 1/2 inch or less using a 410 gr. Great Plains flat point conical with 90 grs of Triple seven. That load was flat out devastating on deer. Sadly, they quit making that weight conical a while back so I went to shooting saboted bullets. Now, that rifle had a non-QLA barrel. I haven't tried shooting conicals out of my newer V2 with QLA but I've read reports where some have had the QLA portion of the barrel cut off and the barrel recrowned in order to get conicals to group consistently. Something about the QLA on some rifles that doesnt play well with full bore conicals.

 

[Busta]

I had an older CVA Optima that would shoot consistant groups of 1 1/2 inch or less using a 410 gr. Great Plains flat point conical with 90 grs of Triple seven. That load was flat out devastating on deer. Sadly, they quit making that weight conical a while back so I went to shooting saboted bullets. Now, that rifle had a non-QLA barrel. I haven't tried shooting conicals out of my newer V2 with QLA but I've read reports where some have had the QLA portion of the barrel cut off and the barrel recrowned in order to get conicals to group consistently. Something about the QLA on some rifles that doesnt play well with full bore conicals.

The 410 grain Great Plains flat point was a good bullet, the 385 grain Hollow Base Hollow Point, not so much.

CVA's version of the false muzzle is the BGM (Bullet Guiding Muzzle) is only 3/8" long and doesn't adversely affect full bore conicals like T/C's ~1" long QLA does

The biggest difference besides the length, is that CVA's bore is centered in the barrel, the BGM and bore are concentric with the barrel O.D.

Several of the T/C bores are not centered or concentric with the O.D. of the barrel. The QLA is cut in concentric with the O.D. of the barrel, and therefore is not concentric with the bore. This doesn't seem to adversely affect saboted bullets, but causes uneven pressure around the full bore conicals as they depart the crown and are in the QLA section. I think the reason T/C cuts the QLA so deep, is to cover up the non-concentric bores. Not every bore is off center, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

Before the QLA (early to mid 90's), T/C used to void your warranty if they found out you were shooting saboted bullets. Maxi Balls and Maxi Hunter Conicals were what they were pushing. Now T/C has the QLA and is pushing saboted bullets, and recommends not shooting full bore conicals, including Maxi Balls and Maxi Hunters. Can't make this stuff up.

 

[Chris W.]

I had an older CVA Optima that would shoot consistant groups of 1 1/2 inch or less using a 410 gr. Great Plains flat point conical with 90 grs of Triple seven. That load was flat out devastating on deer. Sadly, they quit making that weight conical a while back so I went to shooting saboted bullets. Now, that rifle had a non-QLA barrel. I haven't tried shooting conicals out of my newer V2 with QLA but I've read reports where some have had the QLA portion of the barrel cut off and the barrel recrowned in order to get conicals to group consistently. Something about the QLA on some rifles that doesnt play well with full bore conicals.

The 410 grain Great Plains flat point was a good bullet, the 385 grain Hollow Base Hollow Point, not so much.

CVA's version of the false muzzle is the BGM (Bullet Guiding Muzzle) is only 3/8" long and doesn't adversely affect full bore conicals like T/C's ~1" long QLA does

The biggest difference besides the length, is that CVA's bore is centered in the barrel, the BGM and bore are concentric with the barrel O.D.

Several of the T/C bores are not centered or concentric with the O.D. of the barrel. The QLA is cut in concentric with the O.D. of the barrel, and therefore is not concentric with the bore. This doesn't seem to adversely affect saboted bullets, but causes uneven pressure around the full bore conicals as they depart the crown and are in the QLA section. I think the reason T/C cuts the QLA so deep, is to cover up the non-concentric bores. Not every bore is off center, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

Before the QLA (early to mid 90's), T/C used to void your warranty if they found out you were shooting saboted bullets. Maxi Balls and Maxi Hunter Conicals were what they were pushing. Now T/C has the QLA and is pushing saboted bullets, and recommends not shooting full bore conicals, including Maxi Balls and Maxi Hunters. Can't make this stuff up.

Yeah, the 410 gr GP was a good bullet. I never shot a critter where that load didn't go in one side and out the other. Exit wounds were surprisingly good as well considering it was a flat point design and not a hollow point. It broke my heart when Hornady quit making that weight conical.
I had noticed that the vast majority of barrels being cut and recrowned were on TC rifles. Now I know why. Thanks for the info. :yeah:

 

[DavePA]

Anyone have any experience with a full bore conical in a .45 T/C Contender? Thanks. Dave