States that allow smokless MLs

[45-70]

cartridge case will never be replaced, no matter what ,

 

[michiganmuzzy]

Just my 3 cents worth.

Since joining MM, and educating myself on inlines to prepare myself for the Optima V2 pistol, I have also been learning all about the SML world.

Phone conversations with Levi Reed, and others, have convinced me that the FUTURE for sport shooting, and hunting, lies in the demise of the brass cartridge case.

By eliminating the cartridge case from the equation, one frees up an ENORMOUS potential in the ordinary single shot bolt action rifle.

The ability to shoot extremely accurately at very long ranges for a modest investment in cash is also a great benefit.

If you believe in true hunting ethics, as I was taught as a child, then a single shot rifle becomes an asset, not a hindrance.

The demise of the brass cartridge case will not come quietly. Too many manufacturers have hundreds of millions of dollars invested in the brass cartridge case to let go of it without a huge fight.

Only the military, law enforcement, criminals, and citizens defending themselves from violence REQUIRE, AND DEMAND; rapid, multiple, REPEATED SHOTS.

But, looked at from a logical point of view, it is the next evolution for a sporting rifle. Whether for target shooting at any distance, or hunting.

seems like it wasnt too long ago you were pretty emphatic about having no interest in owning an inline ML. period. Now you can see the future?

 

[Matthew323]

seems like it wasnt too long ago you were pretty emphatic about having no interest in owning an inline ML. period. Now you can see the future?

My heart will always be with a flintlock longrifle, or smoothbore trade gun. I fell in love with my country's history, it's history before it became a country actually. And the guns that helped build that proto-nation.

When I joined MM, I had just seen the radiologist at the VA, who was giving me the unwelcome 1 year follow-up news on my osteoarthritis. Which was, my shoulders were the ONLY area of my body where it was progressing, and it was progressing slightly more rapidly than he had anticipated.

At that same time, pre-Covid-19 social distancing restrictions, I was planning a move out of the homeless shelter where I have been living for some time.

Where, I had HOPED to start shooting M-L long arms (pistols were not in my thoughts), and to begin the process of fishing and hunting after a 30 plus year hiatus.

Which leads me to my recent posts, and their seemingly 180° turn-a-round from my previous statements.

Since I was given the unwelcome news that long arms were going to damage my shoulders, except for the lightest recoiling calibers, I had to rethink how to approach m-l.

There are very few commercial sidelock pistols that can TRULY be considered big game capable beyond 25 yards. None of them can be scoped easily without spending a fair amount of money, beyond a $100. I know, because I have done the research by calling various gunsmiths.

And, MY REALITY IS, I need an optical sight to ethically hunt. PERIOD!!!!

So, the 180° flip to Mt. Monkey's lightly used, CVA Optima V2 pistol.

And, ALL of my subsequent questions regarding inlines.

As far as smokeless m-l is concerned, that came about due to my conversations with Levi Reed regarding the M-REX 2 muzzle brake for the V2 pistol, and multiple conversations with Mt. Monkey subsequent to our trade.

Just because the chance of my owning a smokeless m-l in the near future is pretty low, does not mean my intellect is shut down, my mind is closed, and that I am incapable of asking questions to satisfy my immense curiosity.

I can see ALL the reasons that a cartridge case, or something equivalent to a cartridge case, is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for fully automatic fire with solid projectiles.

And, I can see ALL of the reasons that eliminating the cartridge case from the equation in sporting rifle applications is a HUGE technological advantage.

The main reason for the cartridge case was follow-up shots. Which led to all of the innovations that we have today, virtually all of which came out of warfare's needs.

When you get right down to it, only warriors, criminals, and people defending their lives from animals; whether 2-legged, or 4-legged, need fast follow-up shots. And that is where the cartridge case currently excells.

But, think about this.

One rifle for several lifetimes of use.

Only requiring the periodic replacement of barrels as they were worn out.

.30 caliber

Perhaps, 3 interchangeable barrels with different rates of twist.

Covering everything from the. 30 Carbine to the .30/.378 Weatherby

Requiring .30 caliber Swinglock-style sizing dies

Assorted burn rates of smokeless powders

Hankins, or Arrowhead-style primer modules

All based on a single action capable of withstanding the pressures of the hot, long-range loads with the heaviest bullets

With a REALLY GOOD out of the box trigger.

Maybe something like this does not currently exist, but people are already thinking along these lines.

With CNC technology, modern steels, the ability to market a rifle like described above for less than the price of a good used car is within our grasp right now in 2020.

It's just that NO big manufacturer will take the risk.

If little guys working by themselves can see the advantages, then the engineers at the big firearms companies can also.
They are just risk adverse.

 

[45-70]

its not that one is more accurate or needs for follow up shots or warfare, it is for convenience , man is lazy , unload end of day and put away the rifle.and most hunters really don't want to be bothered about measuring loads , marking ramrods, they just want to load and fire. The other factor is liability because people make dumb mistakes, one double charge and your doomed

 

[michiganmuzzy]

My heart will always be with a flintlock longrifle, or smoothbore trade gun. I fell in love with my country's history, it's history before it became a country actually. And the guns that helped build that proto-nation.

When I joined MM, I had just seen the radiologist at the VA, who was giving me the unwelcome 1 year follow-up news on my osteoarthritis. Which was, my shoulders were the ONLY area of my body where it was progressing, and it was progressing slightly more rapidly than he had anticipated.

At that same time, pre-Covid-19 social distancing restrictions, I was planning a move out of the homeless shelter where I have been living for some time.

Where, I had HOPED to start shooting M-L long arms (pistols were not in my thoughts), and to begin the process of fishing and hunting after a 30 plus year hiatus.

Which leads me to my recent posts, and their seemingly 180° turn-a-round from my previous statements.

Since I was given the unwelcome news that long arms were going to damage my shoulders, except for the lightest recoiling calibers, I had to rethink how to approach m-l.

There are very few commercial sidelock pistols that can TRULY be considered big game capable beyond 25 yards. None of them can be scoped easily without spending a fair amount of money, beyond a $100. I know, because I have done the research by calling various gunsmiths.

And, MY REALITY IS, I need an optical sight to ethically hunt. PERIOD!!!!

So, the 180° flip to Mt. Monkey's lightly used, CVA Optima V2 pistol.

And, ALL of my subsequent questions regarding inlines.

As far as smokeless m-l is concerned, that came about due to my conversations with Levi Reed regarding the M-REX 2 muzzle brake for the V2 pistol, and multiple conversations with Mt. Monkey subsequent to our trade.

Just because the chance of my owning a smokeless m-l in the near future is pretty low, does not mean my intellect is shut down, my mind is closed, and that I am incapable of asking questions to satisfy my immense curiosity.

I can see ALL the reasons that a cartridge case, or something equivalent to a cartridge case, is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for fully automatic fire with solid projectiles.

And, I can see ALL of the reasons that eliminating the cartridge case from the equation in sporting rifle applications is a HUGE technological advantage.

The main reason for the cartridge case was follow-up shots. Which led to all of the innovations that we have today, virtually all of which came out of warfare's needs.

When you get right down to it, only warriors, criminals, and people defending their lives from animals; whether 2-legged, or 4-legged, need fast follow-up shots. And that is where the cartridge case currently excells.

But, think about this.

One rifle for several lifetimes of use.

Only requiring the periodic replacement of barrels as they were worn out.

.30 caliber

Perhaps, 3 interchangeable barrels with different rates of twist.

Covering everything from the. 30 Carbine to the .30/.378 Weatherby

Requiring .30 caliber Swinglock-style sizing dies

Assorted burn rates of smokeless powders

Hankins, or Arrowhead-style primer modules

All based on a single action capable of withstanding the pressures of the hot, long-range loads with the heaviest bullets

With a REALLY GOOD out of the box trigger.

Maybe something like this does not currently exist, but people are already thinking along these lines.

With CNC technology, modern steels, the ability to market a rifle like described above for less than the price of a good used car is within our grasp right now in 2020.

It's just that NO big manufacturer will take the risk.

If little guys working by themselves can see the advantages, then the engineers at the big firearms companies can also.
They are just risk adverse.

Preachin to the choir brother. I have changed direction on MLs so many times my wife gets dizzy.🌪 Ive come 360° 3 times now. As for risk adverse engineers and big companies, as you said earlier, we're such a tiny fraction of the shooters/hunters that theres no profit in building what we WANT. Only in building what they can sell. We gotta build it ourselves or mod the product they make or buy a custom. There's no wrong way to shoot MLs. btw, i love to unload a stack of big @$$ mags from my AR just fer fun

 

[eekjellander]

Just my 3 cents worth.

Since joining MM, and educating myself on inlines to prepare myself for the Optima V2 pistol, I have also been learning all about the SML world.

Phone conversations with Levi Reed, and others, have convinced me that the FUTURE for sport shooting, and hunting, lies in the demise of the brass cartridge case.

By eliminating the cartridge case from the equation, one frees up an ENORMOUS potential in the ordinary single shot bolt action rifle.

The ability to shoot extremely accurately at very long ranges for a modest investment in cash is also a great benefit.

If you believe in true hunting ethics, as I was taught as a child, then a single shot rifle becomes an asset, not a hindrance.

The demise of the brass cartridge case will not come quietly. Too many manufacturers have hundreds of millions of dollars invested in the brass cartridge case to let go of it without a huge fight.

Only the military, law enforcement, criminals, and citizens defending themselves from violence REQUIRE, AND DEMAND; rapid, multiple, REPEATED SHOTS.

But, looked at from a logical point of view, it is the next evolution for a sporting rifle. Whether for target shooting at any distance, or hunting.

Not if it requires any type of assembly by the user as the masses shoot most often 20 at a time and don"t know about scales other than weighing themselves!

 

[brucebuilds]

Just my 3 cents worth.

Since joining MM, and educating myself on inlines to prepare myself for the Optima V2 pistol, I have also been learning all about the SML world.

Phone conversations with Levi Reed, and others, have convinced me that the FUTURE for sport shooting, and hunting, lies in the demise of the brass cartridge case.

By eliminating the cartridge case from the equation, one frees up an ENORMOUS potential in the ordinary single shot bolt action rifle.

The ability to shoot extremely accurately at very long ranges for a modest investment in cash is also a great benefit.

If you believe in true hunting ethics, as I was taught as a child, then a single shot rifle becomes an asset, not a hindrance.

The demise of the brass cartridge case will not come quietly. Too many manufacturers have hundreds of millions of dollars invested in the brass cartridge case to let go of it without a huge fight.

Only the military, law enforcement, criminals, and citizens defending themselves from violence REQUIRE, AND DEMAND; rapid, multiple, REPEATED SHOTS.

But, looked at from a logical point of view, it is the next evolution for a sporting rifle. Whether for target shooting at any distance, or hunting.

While I understand your enthusiasm for muzzle loaders, I would disagree with your assessment of cartridge firearms. Without getting into a technical discussion of the value and efficiency of brass cases, my concern is your statement that "only the military, law enforcement, criminals etc." require and demand multiple shots. Using the word "only" implies that you think the only legitimate weapon for the average citizen is a muzzle loader. If that's your argument I reject that in it's entirety. As shooters of any kind, we either hang together or we will hang separately. When we begin to distinguish between different types of guns, and criticize their owners because we don't happen to like or use them, we make it much easier for all guns to eventually become outlawed.
For what it's worth, I've hunted in the US for the past dozen years or so with a Ruger single shot rifle in .300 WM, because I do like the idea that the first shot has to count, or the rest may not matter. But I don't look down on anyone who hunts with a bolt gun, or semi-auto. The requirement for a hunter, in my opinion, is to quickly dispatch the animal, and the reality is that sometimes requires more than one shot. Otherwise, why do any of us carry extra powder and bullets with our muzzle loaders?

 

[Matthew323]

While I understand your enthusiasm for muzzle loaders, I would disagree with your assessment of cartridge firearms. Without getting into a technical discussion of the value and efficiency of brass cases, my concern is your statement that "only the military, law enforcement, criminals etc." require and demand multiple shots. Using the word "only" implies that you think the only legitimate weapon for the average citizen is a muzzle loader. If that's your argument I reject that in it's entirety. As shooters of any kind, we either hang together or we will hang separately. When we begin to distinguish between different types of guns, and criticize their owners because we don't happen to like or use them, we make it much easier for all guns to eventually become outlawed.
For what it's worth, I've hunted in the US for the past dozen years or so with a Ruger single shot rifle in .300 WM, because I do like the idea that the first shot has to count, or the rest may not matter. But I don't look down on anyone who hunts with a bolt gun, or semi-auto. The requirement for a hunter, in my opinion, is to quickly dispatch the animal, and the reality is that sometimes requires more than one shot. Otherwise, why do any of us carry extra powder and bullets with our muzzle loaders?

brucebuilds:

I could care less what someone chooses to own, or hunt with, as far as firearms are concerned. I was speaking of technological advantages, not personal restrictions.

I used the word "only" in the context of professional requirements in the world of 2020.

1. Professional warriors in nation state armies: selective-fire personal weapons to fight against similarly equipped armies.

2. Law enforcement: semi-auto, or sometimes selective fire weapons to combat criminals similarly armed.

3. Criminals: Armed with anything up to rocket launchers (cartel members), so as to have a shock & awe advantage over the civilians that they intend to committ their mayhem upon.

4. Civilians in a United States Self-Defense Scenario: Currently only allowed to be armed with semi-auto weapons for self defense against criminals who could be armed with just about anything, depending upon their level of training, education, & sophistication.

4a. Civilian Hunters in a Self-Defense Scenario: Armed mostly with large caliber bolt-action rifles when facing dangerous 4-legged animals that can kill you.

As far as I am concerned, my interpretation of the 2nd Ammendment, is that all citizens should have the right to own the same personal defense pistols & rifles that the military uses.

PERIOD.

When I was a kid I was taught NEVER to shoot until I was ABSOLUTELY SURE OF MY TARGET.

It did not matter whether the target was made out of paper, or flesh.

My first 3 weapons were all single shots. Even though I have owned a lot of repeating firearms, dozens in fact, (lever-actions, pump-actions, bolt-actions, & semi-autos), my favorites have ALWAYS been the single shot muzzleloaders, and .22 rimfires.

They appeal to that 1-shot ethos that was instilled in me at age 6.

I fully realize that sometimes the wind picks up as the trigger is pulled, there is a twig downrange that the shooter could not see that deflects the bullet, or the animal chooses to move as the trigger is pulled. All these things have happened to me.

BUT, at the time I pulled the trigger I thought in my heart that I was going to kill the animal with a single shot.

And, perhaps GOD has chosen to bless this weak human that lacked self control in other aspects of his life; for I have been fortunate enough to NOT HAVE PULLED THE TRIGGER ON A NUMBER OF QUESTIONABLE SHOTS THAT I AM POSITIVE WOULD HAVE RESULTED IN WOUNDED, AND LOST GAME.

For that I thank GOD every day of my life!!

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

Wow! You people are killing this thread I normally don't say anything about topics going askew but lately it's all about my opinion vs yours. This thread about SML in different states was goin' good and could have been a good resource for someone who clicked on the thread title but not now. So please

 

[45-70]

whats up with all this mumbo jumbo

 

[Matthew323]

Wow! You people are killing this thread I normally don't say anything about topics going askew but lately it's all about my opinion vs yours. This thread about SML in different states was goin' good and could have been a good resource for someone who clicked on the thread title but not now. So please

My apologies for getting on a soapbox, and ALLOWING myself to be diverted off of the topic of a thread.

This is the second time in a couple of days that I have let myself do this, and I am doing a GREAT disservice to the OP, my fellow forum members that are not getting what the thread promises, and most of all to myself, for it diminishes me in the eyes of others.

There is no excuse for my behavior, and I again offer my apologies to everyone for it.

Bruce

 

[ported45]

its not that one is more accurate or needs for follow up shots or warfare, it is for convenience , man is lazy , unload end of day and put away the rifle.and most hunters really don't want to be bothered about measuring loads , marking ramrods, they just want to load and fire. The other factor is liability because people make dumb mistakes, one double charge and your doomed

Precisely. Hence out comes Traditions' cartridge muzzleloader.

 

[GM54-120]

I will work on getting a sticky with ONLY the list of states regs pertaining to powder and probably lock it also.

 

[GM54-120]

Amend this as needed and i will try to get it stickied

Alabama
40 caliber or larger
Powder restriction not specified

Alaska
45cal or larger
No Smokeless
In addition to general hunting restrictions listed on page 18, you MAY NOT:
Hunt big game with a muzzleloader equipped with a scope, or using smokeless powder as a charge, during any special season for muzzleloading firearms only.

Arizona
No caliber restriction specified
No Smokeless
A Muzzle-loading handgun means a firearm intended to be fired from the hand, incapable of firing fixed ammunition, having a single barrel, loaded through the muzzle with black powder or synthetic black powder, and a single projectile

Arkansas
40cal or larger
Powder restriction not specified

California
40cal or larger
No Smokeless
Smokeless powder prohibited in muzzleloading seasons. Black powder and black-powder substitutes are legal.

Colorado
40cal or larger
No Smokeless
Propellent/Powders: The use of pelletized powder systems and smokeless powder are prohibited.

Connecticut
45cal or larger
Powder restriction not specified

Delaware
42cal or larger
Powder restriction not specified

Florida
30cal or larger
No Smokeless
The legal types of guns for use during the muzzleloading gun season use black powder or a non-nitro-cellulose substitute and are fired by wheel lock, flintlock or percussion cap ignition (including 209 primers). Muzzleloaders using smokeless powder, those that can be loaded from the breech or those with self-contained cartridge ammunition capabilities are not legal during this period.

Georgia
30cal and 20 gauge or larger
Powder restriction not specified

Hawaii
44cal or larger
Powder restriction not specified

Idaho
45cal or larger
No Smokeless
Loaded only with loose black powder, loose Pyrodex, or other loose synthetic black powder. Pelletized powders are prohibited.

Illinois
45cal or larger
Smokeless allowed
Only black powder or a “black powder substitute” such as Pyrodex may be used. Modern smokeless powders are an approved black powder substitute only in muzzleloading firearms that are specifically designed for their use

Indiana
44cal or larger
Powder restriction not specified

Iowa
44cal or larger
Powder restriction not specified
Muzzleloaders equipped with electronic ignition are not allowed. There are no restrictions on in-line or disk-type muzzleloaders.

Kansas
45cal or larger 210gr minimum
Powder restriction not specified

Kentucky
No caliber or powder restriction specified for rifles.

Louisiana
44cal or larger
Unclear but smokeless appears to be illegal
Legal Primitive Firearms for Special Primitive Firearms Season include: rifles or pistols, .44 caliber minimum, or shotguns 10 gauge or smaller, all of which must load exclusively from the muzzle or cap and ball cylinder, use black powder or approved substitute only, take ball or bullet projectile only, including saboted bullets, including primitive firearms known as “in line” primitive firearms, and Single shot, breech loading rifles, .35 caliber or larger, having an exposed hammer that use metallic cartridges loaded either with black powder or modern smokeless powder.

Maine
40cal or larger
Powder restriction not specified

Maryland
40cal or larger
No Smokeless allowed
Muzzleloaders used for deer and bear hunting must be at least .40 caliber in size and use not less than 60 grains of black powder (or a black powder equivalent)

Massachusetts
44cal or larger
No Smokeless
So-called "in-line" ignition systems which have a horizontal firing mechanism instead of a traditional hammer system are lawful, provided they meet all other provisions of these requirements; may be either rifled bore or smoothbore, is of a caliber not less than .44 nor greater than .775, and has a barrel length of 18 inches or longer, is used only with black powder or a synthetic substance such as "Pyrodex" which is approved for competitive muzzle-loading shoots by the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association

Michigan
No Caliber restriction
No Smokeless
a muzzleloading shotgun, or a black powder handgun loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute

Minnesota
40cal or larger
Powder restriction not specified

Mississippi
38cal or larger
No Smokeless
All muzzle-loading Primitive Firearms must use black powder or a black powder substitute with either percussion caps or #209 shotgun primers or flintlock ignition

Missouri
40cal or larger
Powder restriction not specified

Montana
45cal or larger
No Smokeless
must be charged with black powder, pyrodex, or an equivalent; must be ignited by a percussion, flintlock, matchlock, or Wheelock mechanism

Nebraska
44cal or larger
Powder restriction not specified

Nevada
45cal or larger
No Smokeless allowed
Only black powder or a black powder substitute such as Pyrodex or Triple 7 may be used as a propellant

New Hampshire
40cal or larger
Powder restriction not specified

New Jersey
44cal or larger
No Smokeless
Only black powder or black powder equivalents, such as Pyrodex and Triple Se7en, may be used with a muzzleloading firearm when engaged in hunting. Modern smokeless powder is strictly prohibited while hunting game with a muzzleloading firearm.


New Mexico
45cal or larger
No Smokeless allowed
Only black powder, Pyrodex or an equivalent substitute may be used. Smokeless powder is illegal.

New York
44cal or larger
Powder restriction not specified

North Carolina
No caliber or powder restriction specified for rifles
The Commission defines a blackpowder firearm as any firearm that cannot use fixed ammunition

North Dakota
45cal or larger
No Smokeless
firing black powder or black powder substitutes are legal. Smokeless powders are not legal

Ohio
38cal or larger
Powder restriction not specified

Oklahoma
40cal or larger
Powder restriction not specified

Oregon
40cal or larger
No Smokeless
It is illegal to hunt with pelletized powders or propellants during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only. Granular (loose) black powder and black powder substitutes are the only legal propellants during muzzleloader-only seasons and 600 series hunts where there is a weapon restriction of shotgun/muzzleloader only or archery/muzzleloader only

Pennsylvania
44cal or larger
Powder restriction not specified

Rhode Island
45cal or larger
Powder restriction not specified
Powder is limited to manufacturers’ specifications.

South Carolina
36cal or larger
No Smokeless
which use black powder or a black powder substitute that does not contain nitro-cellulose or nitro-glycerin components as the propellant charge

South Dakota
44cal or larger
No Smokeless
Smokeless powder is not allowed during muzzleloading seasons

Tennessee
36cal or larger
Powder restriction not specified

Texas
No caliber or powder restriction specified for rifles.
A Muzzleloader is defined as any firearm that is loaded only through the muzzle.

Utah
40cal or larger
No smokeless
It must be loaded with black powder or a black powder substitute. The black powder or black power substitute cannot contain smokeless powder, but may contain some nitrocellulose.

Vermont
43cal or larger
No Smokeless
Black Powder or other suitable not-smokeless propellant

Virginia
45cal or larger
Smokeless allowed
Must use at least 50 grains of black powder or black powder equivalent. Smokeless powder is allowed in muzzleloading firearms designed for it.

Washington
40cal or larger
No Smokeless
uses black powder or a black powder substitute as recommended by the manufacturer for use in all muzzleloading firearms

West Virginia
38cal or larger
Powder restriction not specified but............
A firearm that has been converted into a muzzleloader by use of a plug, or a double-barreled or swivel barreled muzzleloader is illegal for deer hunting during the muzzleloader season.

Wisconsin
40cal or larger
No Smokeless
inline muzzleloaders are legal to use during the 10-day muzzleloader hunt with black powder or any black powder substitutes.

Wyoming
40cal or larger
Unclear but likely illegal
using a charge of at least fifty (50) grains of black powder or its equivalent.

 

[Ga.Smokey]

Georgia now allowing 30 caliber muzzleloader in primitive weapons and regular rifle seasons.
No clarification so smokeless appears to be legal

 

[GM54-120]

Georgia now allowing 30 caliber muzzleloader in primitive weapons and regular rifle seasons.

Updated to 30cal/20 gauge.

 

[Hanshi]

My heart will always be with a flintlock longrifle, or smoothbore trade gun.

I can not agree more with this statement than I do already. My feelings on this are the same as yours. Maybe we should get together with a drink and talk about them.