I just bought a traditions pursuit ll xlt muzzleloader. i sighted it in the other day with three shots.I was using 295 grain powerbelts with 2 pyrodex pellets. It loaded awesome shot good came home cleaned it. Went hunting sunday loader another and fired it off. Then try to reload and couldn't get the bullet all the way down.So i brought it home screwed the breech plug out and had to apply a great amount of force to get the bullet out. Then i reloaded it and the bullet went in fine.Anyone have this happen and help or comments would be appreciated thanks.
bullet wouldn't go all the way down
- Thread starter krchov
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Sounds like the Crud Ring. I get it too in my Accura with Pyrodex. My Traditions Evolution on the other hand does not get it.
Try running a damp patch down the bore after each shot, along with a couple dry patches.
Try running a damp patch down the bore after each shot, along with a couple dry patches.
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Nope, not caused by Teflon.
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crude ring not teflon ...
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i used to get it now and then in a cva mountain rifle and i never used teflon tape in that rifle.
My Accura is actually the first rifle ive had that gets a crud ring with pyrodex. The traditions has a deep concave breech plug while the accura only has a slight depression on the face of the plug.
My Accura is actually the first rifle ive had that gets a crud ring with pyrodex. The traditions has a deep concave breech plug while the accura only has a slight depression on the face of the plug.
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My point... it has nothing to do with teflon tape on the breech plug.
I am still of the belief the 'crud ring' is formed by a chemical reaction of burning powder - intense heat (t7 burning hotter than any other sub), along with elevated pressures, and the materials (lubes, oils, grease) that my be in the bore.
One of the things that I THINK might help the formation of the 'crude ring' might be burning teflon, teflon that is used in the different bore oils that are use by a lot of folks. I read an article several months ago that burning teflon creates a gas and a sticky residue in the bore. Target shooters and makers of precision barrels will tell you that they do not use nor advise the use of teflon in the bore. If you look around at most of the high quality bore oils they flatly state -'contains no teflon'
The burning remnants of teflon treated oils, MAY help create the place for the 'crud ring' to form.
What I KNOW is since I quit using bore oil with teflon and finally got the barrels stripped of all teflon - I really do not have a problem with the formation of the 'crud ring'. Just cleaning the bore will not clear the teflon form the bore... shooting will not clear the teflon from the bore - it will take several rounds if then. The teflon seeks the micro fractures and pores (and they are there) of the bore and imbeds itself in these spots. Each time you shoot and create heat teflon is melted and burned creating the gas cycle. True - teflon makes the barrel smoother,slicker and can help increase pressure and for those thatuse and like it - great, I am just relaying that I feel that teflon can be detrimental to some degree.
The origninal chemist from DuPont even recommnended not using teflon in oils, but in engines when teflon is used it certainly can quiet the engine and provide a smoother operating surface....
Again, i can only say that this SEEMs to be my findings in my un-scientific search for the casue of the 'crud ring'
And then I dod know know that you could actually get the 'crud ring' from shooting Pyro products but that just makes me believe more in the theory of a chemical reaction.
another one of those 2 cent theories that I come up with...
I am still of the belief the 'crud ring' is formed by a chemical reaction of burning powder - intense heat (t7 burning hotter than any other sub), along with elevated pressures, and the materials (lubes, oils, grease) that my be in the bore.
One of the things that I THINK might help the formation of the 'crude ring' might be burning teflon, teflon that is used in the different bore oils that are use by a lot of folks. I read an article several months ago that burning teflon creates a gas and a sticky residue in the bore. Target shooters and makers of precision barrels will tell you that they do not use nor advise the use of teflon in the bore. If you look around at most of the high quality bore oils they flatly state -'contains no teflon'
The burning remnants of teflon treated oils, MAY help create the place for the 'crud ring' to form.
What I KNOW is since I quit using bore oil with teflon and finally got the barrels stripped of all teflon - I really do not have a problem with the formation of the 'crud ring'. Just cleaning the bore will not clear the teflon form the bore... shooting will not clear the teflon from the bore - it will take several rounds if then. The teflon seeks the micro fractures and pores (and they are there) of the bore and imbeds itself in these spots. Each time you shoot and create heat teflon is melted and burned creating the gas cycle. True - teflon makes the barrel smoother,slicker and can help increase pressure and for those thatuse and like it - great, I am just relaying that I feel that teflon can be detrimental to some degree.
The origninal chemist from DuPont even recommnended not using teflon in oils, but in engines when teflon is used it certainly can quiet the engine and provide a smoother operating surface....
Again, i can only say that this SEEMs to be my findings in my un-scientific search for the casue of the 'crud ring'
And then I dod know know that you could actually get the 'crud ring' from shooting Pyro products but that just makes me believe more in the theory of a chemical reaction.
another one of those 2 cent theories that I come up with...
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The first time i ever shot my Omega i used 777 and it developed a bad crud ring. Unless TC put teflon in the bore, there was no teflon. Several times after that when i shot the rifle, a bad crud ring developed. I used TC products to clean the gun, and unless they have teflon, there has never been teflon in my rifle barrel. I tried 777 primers, and the crud ring was reduced, but it still developed. I tried the varaflame system, and this reduced the crud ring, but it still developed.
You may be correct that the crud ring is caused by chemical reaction with the residue of oils in the barrel of the Omega, but unless TC uses teflon in their manufacturing process, teflon has nothing to do with the crud ring in my rifle. I never thought to try cleaning it with boiling water, and/or other extreme measures, but i did get rid of the 'crud ring'.
The crud ring doesn't exist in my rifles anymore, 'cuz i uses BH209.
You may be correct that the crud ring is caused by chemical reaction with the residue of oils in the barrel of the Omega, but unless TC uses teflon in their manufacturing process, teflon has nothing to do with the crud ring in my rifle. I never thought to try cleaning it with boiling water, and/or other extreme measures, but i did get rid of the 'crud ring'.
The crud ring doesn't exist in my rifles anymore, 'cuz i uses BH209.
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ronlaughlin
Ron, i am not trying to say that teflon is ONLY thing but i believe to be one of the things and one of the more common things used in a bore. In my case again I can have never felt much of a 'crud ring' ever in my Omega and what is there wipe out very easily with a windex patch. It most often takes 5 consecutive shots (without patching) before the sabot/projectile become difficult to load. In my White I have loaded 12/16 consecutive shots, shooting 209 primers, 120 grains of T7-2f, and a .458/300 grain projectile.
The only reason I somewhat indite tefon is it becomes sticky when heated and more solid when cooled - windex, spit, hoppes, or not much of anything else is going to dissolve teflon.
In tying these different methods you reduced the instant heat applied to the bore which would seem to reduce the reaction. The key is whether the reaction has something to stick to.
I would ask, Have you ever polished your bore? Have you ever flushed your bore? Have you ever emptied the pores and micro fractures with heat? Have you tried synthetic bore conditioners?
Which also goes along with my point... BH never builds the pressure at a given monent in a given spot as does T7, BH is a progressive powder it burns most of the way down the bore.
Just general question I would ask anyone...
Ron, i am not trying to say that teflon is ONLY thing but i believe to be one of the things and one of the more common things used in a bore. In my case again I can have never felt much of a 'crud ring' ever in my Omega and what is there wipe out very easily with a windex patch. It most often takes 5 consecutive shots (without patching) before the sabot/projectile become difficult to load. In my White I have loaded 12/16 consecutive shots, shooting 209 primers, 120 grains of T7-2f, and a .458/300 grain projectile.
The only reason I somewhat indite tefon is it becomes sticky when heated and more solid when cooled - windex, spit, hoppes, or not much of anything else is going to dissolve teflon.
In tying these different methods you reduced the instant heat applied to the bore which would seem to reduce the reaction. The key is whether the reaction has something to stick to.
I would ask, Have you ever polished your bore? Have you ever flushed your bore? Have you ever emptied the pores and micro fractures with heat? Have you tried synthetic bore conditioners?
Which also goes along with my point... BH never builds the pressure at a given monent in a given spot as does T7, BH is a progressive powder it burns most of the way down the bore.
Just general question I would ask anyone...
sabotloader said:
I only use Rem Oil which contains teflon. I have never had a crud ring w/777. Not saying your theory is incorrect. Just throwing some data out there.
krchov - Sounds like the bullet was a little crooked. Should be fine from now on.
also we're kinda hijacking this guy's thread. This is a good discussion perhaps we should move it.
If you can break away from pellets, try loose American Pioneer powder in the premeasured 100 grain tubes. My buddy, Hawgslayer shoots Powerbelt 295's in his CVA Accura with this same powder and is getting tight groups. No crud rings :!:
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sabotloader said:
The only thing i have done other than normal cleaning of the Omega barrel is use J-B bore cleaner a couple of times. It is a paste, but i don't know if that qualifies as polishing. Matters not, as i have not tried 777 since, to see if it made a difference.
Using BH209 does away with most all the issues 777 has, and doesn't bring any, so it is what i use.
Funny, how a misaligned bullet can get a conversation going a way off topic.
