heavyweights????????

[Anonymous]

 

[Anonymous]

Ok, Im not the sharpest knife in the drawer but if pressure isnt being relieved when it burns past either the patch or blows out the sabot as either of these jackets are still in the barrel it sure would not happen outside the barrel. If this failure occurs in the barrel then is not high pressure being relieved, and it will vent around these jackets increasing venting as pressure tries to build while gas jet cutting more of the jacket thus allowing more relieve. Time I believe in this instance is not a factor as much as pressure. I know of no other way to explain it. If you can please dumb it down for me.

Time IS THE FACTOR.

 

[peteo]

Ok, Time is a factor that rides side by side with pressure. But pressure is the variable that determines time the projectile is in the barrel. Time cannot dictate when the bullet leaves the muzzle.

 

[gbb]

were pressure the main factor then we might be using Bullseye (or some other very fast powder) instead of looking toward slower burning powders.

 

[peteo]

gbb,
You could wait a month of sundays with the load in the barrel but without pressure it will just sit there with the clock running.

 

[Anonymous]

If the question is / was one of "pressure relief" the peak pressure node has already been hit before degassing can possibly occur. Rise to peak pressure is instant, and you have no vent from barrel direct to atmosphere.

Consider a revolver-- the barrel is always vented. In no way does that mean revolvers cannot develop VERY, VERY high pressure.

A .454 Casull loaded with 22.5 grains (1.67cc) Alliant 2400 may develop 60,000 PSI.

Useful case capacity of the .454 Casull is 2.19cc's. Really want to fill
that case with Alliant 2400? I hope you do not, even though the barrel is permanently vented to the atmosphere and you may wish to add a paper patch for pressure relief. :?

 

[peteo]

Just a question not advocating.
If a guy could stand the punishment why could'nt he go with a paper patched lead bullet sized to bore fit? The paper patch would act much like the plastic and would burn past and vent hot gases past the bullet relieving unacceptable pressure. The barrel is proof tested and I am sure there are smokeless loads that could be safely brought to service by watching paper jacket for burn thru and checking barrel for leading.
I know that Savage states that only saboted bullets may be used I think they state 45 cal max and nothing over 300 grains. Why?

This was the question, but I am having trouble understanding the concept of paper or plastic jacket failure causing leading in the barrel. Even though peak pressure is instaneous jacket failure would occur before peak pressure could be attained because pressure is moving around jacket and projectile faster than its travel down barrel thus relief of higher pressure build up and melting and deposit of projectile in the barrel.

 

[Anonymous]

Lead melts at 620.6? F.

 

[Rifleman]

Randy wrote

Lead melts at 620.6? F.

Well just to through a wrench in the lead melting pot, wouldn't the melting point change depending on pressure?
I know water will boil at 212 F but under pressure the boiling point is higher,sometimes much higher. Matter of fact we maintain water in a liquid state at temps in excess of 400 F, under high pressure of course, where I work. So anyway how does this affect a bullet under heat and pressure. Thinking may be required before a response is made! :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

Melting point is the temperature at which a substance changes from a solid to a liquid. The melting points of different substances vary considerably. For example, tungsten has an extremely high melting point, 3410 ?C, but solid hydrogen melts at the low temperature of -259 ?C. The melting point of a material depends partly on whether the material is a pure substance or a mixture. A pure substance is either a pure element, such as iron, or a simple compound, such as water. A mixture consists of two or more substances that are not chemically combined.

A pure substance melts at a definite temperature or within a narrow temperature range. For example, when iron is heated, its temperature rises until the metal reaches its melting point of 1535 ?C. The iron remains at that temperature until all the metal has melted.

Mixtures do not melt at a specific temperature. Simple mixtures, such as brass and steel, melt over a range of temperatures. For example, steel, which is a mixture of iron and other elements, has a melting point of 1400 ?C to 1500 ?C. Thus, the temperature of steel rises 100 ?C during the melting process instead of remaining constant. Such complex mixtures as glass and tar do not melt over a specific temperature range. Instead, these substances gradually become softer and more fluid as their temperature increases.

The melting point of most simple mixtures differs from that of any of the pure substances in the mixtures. Brass, an alloy of copper and zinc, melts over a range of 900 ?C to 1000 ?C. However, the melting point of copper is 1083.4 ?C, and that of zinc is 419.58 ?C.

The melting point of a substance is affected by atmospheric pressure. An increase in this pressure raises the melting point of most substances. But an increase in atmospheric pressure lowers the melting point of water and of the few other substances that expand when they freeze. All freezing points specified in this article are based on a pressure of 1 atmosphere (14.696 pounds per square inch [101.325 kilopascals]), the pressure of the atmosphere at average sea level.

The liquid form of a pure substance freezes at the same temperature at which its solid form melts. Thus, the solid and liquid forms can exist together at the melting point without any temperature change in either. For example, if any amount of ice whose temperature is 0 ?C, the melting point of ice, is added to any amount of water whose temperature is also 0 ?C, the temperature of the resulting ice water will remain 0 ?C. Furthermore, the relative proportions of ice and water will remain the same unless heat is added to the ice water or removed from it. However, if heat is added, the ice will begin to melt. If heat is removed, the water will begin to freeze.

The solid and liquid forms of a mixture can exist together over a range of temperatures. This range is determined by the type and amount of each of the pure substances in the mixture.

Some pure solids do not melt when heated. Instead, they change from a solid to a gas. Such substances as arsenic, dry ice, and iodine go through this process, which is called sublimation.




______________
Contributor:
? John P. Chesick, Ph.D., Former Professor of Chemistry, Haverford College.

Chesick, John P. "Melting point." World Book Online Reference Center. 2005. World Book, Inc. 4 Dec. 2005 http://www.aolsvc.worldbook.aol.com/wb/Article?id=ar354540.

 

[Rifleman]

AHAHAHAHAHA the funny thing is I never really gave a hoot anyway! I just wanted to see RW post another fabulous ANALytical response to a thread gone over the top! oke: :lol:
Thanks Randy for telling me more then I ever wanted to know about melting points! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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:lol:

 

[savageml10-2]

WOW I GO HUNTING FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS AND LOOK WHAT I STARTED ok RW i was asking for info, you other guys RW just tries to inform us and on occasion seems to be condecending and i know he is not. He just tries to keep us all safe.
OK now that said this was an inquiry as i was looking for a bullet that let you take frontal longways shots and long angle shots on drives like i did with my 550grain 54 cal(itpassed thru with little meat damage) as i tore up a doe badly i guess i cannot fault the 300 xtp(std) as shot placement was the cause. with this in mind i must take the meat damage or pass up the shot. Cmon folks RW has also rubbed me wrong till I figured out how smart he is :shock: and most of the time he is right so lets not make this a roast of one mans opinions and or facts
Dave

 

[savageml10-2]

hey RW
this all started because i saw in a couple of your articles you had load data for VV N-120 and 350 grain bullets and you mentioned the 375SSB at 65-67 grs of 2015 none of which are reccomended by savage
now with out starting a peeing contest between everyone
Can we please talk about this topic? no holding anyone liable?

LOL ok and on a lighter note did YOu void your warranty ?? :lol:
if we cannot can we discuss this on the advanced board and how cqan a guy see that ? :?:
thanks and i WAS just kidding
Dave

 

[peteo]

Ok! Ok! :lol: Yes!, and if memory from school way back when serves me correctly it takes 34 or 40 btu's to change 1# of 32 degree ice to 1# of 32 degree water or vice-a-versa.
I do not intend to shoot a 450-500 grain 50 cal lead slug :shock: wrapped in paper out of my savage although I do believe it would be quite accurate. (maybe more so than plastic sabots with current technology)
I quess I will always have trouble understanding jacket failure and peak pressure. :?
Hey how about them Cubs? :wink:

 

[Rifleman]

Savageml10-2 and anyone else so inclined-
Sorry you took my post the wrong way, it was tongue in cheek.Randy is a good friend of mine and I was just bustin his chops, tongue in cheek. Of course Randy knows that or I would not have done it.

 

[savagebrother]

ok guys, first of all being safe means not firing something that is outside the pressure limits of the design. now that being said, many of us have fired and are still firing bore sized conicals. on one of the other posts i sited a load that for any other purpose could dispose of anything that walks crawls or flies on the planet. this load does not exceed 40,000 psi.
some of you shooting 300 grain bullets and heavier using 5744 are approaching the 40,000 psi mark. savage say what they say because they dont know. they are liable we out here are not. maintaining proper pressure for the bullet and load of powder is crutial to safety and accuracy.
if you over pressure your savage there is no piece of plastic going to save it. just ask around to the fellas that have had to have there barrels replaced, and they were shooting factory authorized powders.
i have over 800 rounds of 480 grain lead conicals at 2000 fps thru my gun and it still shoots 250 sst's just fine.
remember lack of knowledge does not mean your safe or smart, just worried about liability. many of us have shot just about every powder and bullet combo you could think of thru these guns and we are still shooting them. we told people a few years ago about imr- and h-4198 but they didnt want to believe us. actually accused us of putting people in danger. my how things have changed. dont believe you cant shoot big bore size conicals in the savage you can and you can do it safely. but be ready for the recoil. any one interested can pm me i am more than happy to help any one.
sb

 

[Anonymous]

Of course Randy knows that or I would not have done it.

Just like that vicious rumor Rifleman started about Mrs. Rifleman's "zero calorie" 2" thick pecan pie. It quickly broke the hopes and dreams of pie-lovers across North America. :cry:

 

[Anonymous]

OK now that said this was an inquiry as i was looking for a bullet that let you take frontal longways shots and long angle shots on drives

Dave,

Let's see if this line of conversation makes a bit of sense. Many people will accept that whatever their vision of "good terminal performance" might be, the best 25 yard bullet is not the same as the best 200 yard bullet-- just as saying that the bullet that works best @ 2200 fps strike velocity is not always the same as the bullet that works best @ 1250 fps strike velocity.

If we can restrict ourselves to broadside, honey hole shots at moderate velocities-- we don't need a very tough bullet. A fast expanding bullet creates more damage than one that does not, and since most of us do not feast on lungs or internal organs-- so the more damage, the better. Pure lead expands easiest at moderate velocities, so that along with hollow pointed or relatively thin plated / jacketed bullets makes a lot of sense.

But, that's if our style of hunting is broadside honey hole shots, and we do not see the need for through the chest, or "Elmer Keith" raking and rump shots that led him to dismiss the .270 and several other cartridges in favor of the .35 Whelen "back in the day." We don't need a very tough bullet, and a thicker jacketed bullet may be a negative for us. But, lacking a broadside shot we might want to pass rather than risk a raking or Texas heart shot. Pure lead is likely a better choice for honey hole broadside than a Barnes Original, for example.

Perhaps we want the ability to take an animal with a severe raking shot, or go straight through the chest or rump without worries. Now, a far tougher bullet like the Barnes Original with its .032" thick jacket makes better sense. No way will it expand like pure lead, it was created to be a tougher bullet and remains an African plains game favorite.

Now, if we really want to take a given animal, a chest or raking shot is little issue. We might want to forget the honey hole altogether, and seek the double shoulder shot to make sure that bullet contacts bone. It is not reasonable to expect a Barnes Original to expand like pure lead in the case of just grazing a rib or not breaking bones. But it allows more angles, and use on bigger tougher game as well.

For those of us that claim to be purely meat hunters, there is the fastest kill shot known-- bullet through brain. There is the zero meat damage and instant kill we might say we want.

Then we have the 300 gr. Barnes MZ-Expander, less of a compromise bullet than most. Of course it won't turn into a pancake like pure lead, but with a huge hollow point like that and large petals scraping through an animal, it is a brutal bullet to put through an animal at any angle. There is the potential of 100 weight retention, which seems to be true more often than not. If there is something to knock about it, it is only that it isn't that flattest shooting bullet in the barn-- no better than XTPs. If we know we are shooting inside 150 yards, well . . . it is hard to fathom that as any issue.

On it goes with the Spitfire profile-- a better flyer, but no way will it expand at as low of a velocity of an MZ-Expander. A tough spot-- a better long range bullet ballistically, that needs more strike velocity to work well.

It isn't a huge stretch to say that there really isn't such a thing as a truly "bad" .45 / 50 250 - 300 gr. bullet. All depends how we choose to use them. :wink:

 

[savagebrother]

nicely said randy, bottom line is know your bullets, know your load, and more importantly know YOUR limitations. place that bullet and load combo where it does the most damage=fresh venison.
sb