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frontier gander

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guys i am going to michigan in may and then again in august. When is the muzzleloader season in michigan? rules? my girl friend lives there so i can pretty much come out any time for MI Mler season.
 
I think the no smokeless refers only to the actual muzzleloading season only - I would assume a smokeless ml could be used during the regular firearms season. The guide says "loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute". I know what that means to me but some might argue smokeless would be considered a substitue. I wonder how a judge would rule?

I see alot of savage shooters at the DNR range - I wonder if they're they're aware of that?
 
tpcollins said:
I think the no smokeless refers only to the actual muzzleloading season only - I would assume a smokeless ml could be used during the regular firearms season.

I believe you are correct on that.
 
Smokeless powder in a muzzy can only be used in the rifle zones during the firearm deer season Nov 15th - 30th. It can not be used in any of the zones during the muzzleloading seasons in Dec. I got into a pissing match with the DNR a couple of years ago about this very thing. Rule book states no smokeless powder.

Last year I heard rumors that they were not going to allow Blackhorn 209 but I think it has gotten in now and they will have a really tough time getting it out now that it has been used for a year.

DC

By the way the Michigan DNR does not have a clue when it comes to smokeless substitutes. But I do not wish to be the test case.
 
These are the dates for Zone 3 which is where I live. This is the bottom half of the lower peninsula. We can use firearms here Nov.15 of the current year thru Jan.1 of the new year. There are 3 days there is no hunting between the end of regular firearms and the start of ML season. Other then these 3 days you're good to go. Also, a ML can be used for any of these.


Nov.15-30 = Regular Firearms season

Dec.4-20 = Muzzleloading season

Dec.21 - Jan.1 = Extended Doe Season
 
Muzzleloader Season always starts on a Friday for all the Zones.

Zone 1 runs from Friday Dec 3, 2010 through Sunday Dec 12, 2010 (10 days).

Zone 2 starts on the second Friday, Dec 10, 2010 through Dec 19, 2010 (10 days).

Muzzleloader Season for Zone 3 starts on the first Friday in December and runs through to the third Sunday. This year 2010 it will start on Friday Dec 3, 2010 and run through Sunday Dec 19, 2010 (17 days).

House Bill 4554 (2007) has been dead in the water for 3 years. Minst 7877 is right on about the smokeless, but not about Blackhorn 209, it is a commercially manufactured "Black Powder Substitute" / "High Performance Muzzleloading Propellant".

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(hmrdvk ... 45art3xsjp))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=2007-HB-4554&queryid=21548598

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents ... B-4554.htm

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents ... 4554-1.htm

The only rule is no Smokless in the Muzzleloading Season or in the Shotgun Zone during the General Firearms Seasons. There are no caliber/bullet/scope/ignition/pellet/powder restrictions, with the exception of smokeless. An uncapped rifle is considered unloaded and may be transported as such. Of course this is all for Whitetail Deer.
 
Busta said:
The only rule is no Smokless in the Muzzleloading Season or in the Shotgun Zone during the General Firearms Seasons.

I couldn't find a powder designation/restriction for the general firearm season - only the ml season in my guide. However, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I just couldn't find it.
 
tpcollins said:
Busta said:
The only rule is no Smokless in the Muzzleloading Season or in the Shotgun Zone during the General Firearms Seasons.

I couldn't find a powder designation/restriction for the general firearm season - only the ml season in my guide. However, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I just couldn't find it.

Well, it is not actually "spelled out" as no smokeless, it is all in the wording and interpretation of the DNRE Law Enforcement Division in Lansing. Believe me, I have went round and round with them and they stand firm to the wording.

This is what it says for the Muzzleloading Deer Seasons.
"Muzzleloading Deer Seasons
During the December muzzleloading seasons, muzzleloading deer hunters can carry afield and use only a muzzleloading rifle, a muzzleloading shotgun, or a black powder handgun loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute."


This is what they stand by and is listed in the regs for the Shotgun Zone, "A muzzleloading rifle or black powder handgun must be loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute."

I personally think that smokeless "IS" the original "Commercially Manufactured Black Powder Substitute", but it is not worded as such on the container, and the DNRE doesn't see it as such. It is not like some states that specifically state "No Nitrocellulose-Based Powders".

You have to read all the rules of Muzzleloading "AND" deer huning in the Shotgun Zone, the rules for statwide muzzleloading also apply in the shotgun zone during the Firearms Deer Season. In the Rifle Zone it is anything goes.

From the Michigan Regs, scroll dow to the red areas.

Firearm, Crossbow and Bow and Arrow Rules

The rules listed below may not apply to a person having a concealed pistol license or a person specifically exempt by law from a concealed pistol license and who carries their handgun in accordance with their license or exemption.

Shell Capacity for Shotguns and Centerfire Rifles
It is unlawful to hunt with a semi-automatic shotgun or semi-automatic rifle that can hold more than six shells in the barrel and magazine combined unless it is a .22 caliber rimfire. Fully automatic firearms are illegal. All shotguns used for migratory game birds (including woodcock) must be plugged so the total capacity of the shotgun does not exceed three shells.

Crossbows
Crossbows are legal to use:

during any season in which a firearm may be used, for both big and small game statewide.
by anyone 50 years of age or older during the Oct. 1-Nov. 14 bow hunting deer season statewide.
by any hunter age 12 and older during the bow hunting season in Zone 3.

Hunters must be at least 12 years of age to use a crossbow. Youth, 10 and 11, may not use a crossbow. Crossbows used for hunting are restricted to a velocity of no more than 350 feet per second.
A free crossbow stamp, available from all license agents or online at www.michigan.gov/dnr, is required in addition to a valid hunting license for those using a crossbow to hunt. Crossbow hunters are required to wear hunter orange while hunting deer during the early antlerless, youth firearm, and the November firearm deer seasons.
Archery Deer Seasons
During the archery deer seasons, it is illegal to carry afield a pistol, revolver or other firearm while bow hunting for deer.
Exceptions: This prohibition does not apply to pistols carried under authority of a concealed pistol license or properly carried under authority of a specific exception from the requirement of a concealed pistol license. However, a concealed pistol license does not authorize the individual to use the pistol to take game except as provided by law.

November 10-14
It is unlawful to carry afield or transport any rifle (including rimfire) or shotgun if you have buckshot, slug, ball loads or cut shells.
Exception: You may transport a firearm to your deer camp or to a target range during this period if the firearm is properly transported (see Transporting - Carrying Firearms and Bows and Arrows). A resident who holds a fur harvester license may carry a .22 caliber or smaller rimfire firearm while hunting furbearers or checking a trap line during the open season for hunting furbearers or trapping furbearing animals. You also may target shoot on your own property provided there is no attempt to take game.

November 15-30 Firearm Deer Season
It is illegal for a person taking or attempting to take game to carry or possess afield a centerfire or muzzleloading rifle, a bow and arrow, a centerfire or black powder handgun, or a shotgun with buckshot, slug or ball loads or cut shells, unless you have in your possession a 2008 firearm deer, combination deer or antlerless deer license for the appropriate DMU, with an unused kill tag issued in your name, or a 2008 firearm deer, combination deer or antlerless deer license for the appropriate DMU issued in your name with an unused deer management assistance permit (DMA) kill tag or an unused managed deer hunting permit.

Muzzleloading Deer Seasons
During the December muzzleloading seasons, muzzleloading deer hunters can carry afield and use only a muzzleloading rifle, a muzzleloading shotgun, or a black powder handgun loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute.


All Firearm Deer Seasons - Rifle Zone
In the rifle zone, deer may be taken with handguns, rifles, bows and arrows, shotguns and muzzleloading firearms including black powder handguns. It is legal to hunt deer in the rifle zone with any caliber of firearm except a .22 caliber or smaller rimfire (rifle or handgun). Crossbows are legal to use by a person 12 years of age or older during the Nov. 15-30 firearm deer season. During the firearm deer seasons, a firearm deer hunter may carry afield a bow and arrow and firearm.
Exception: See Muzzleloading Deer Seasons above for restrictions during this season.

All Firearm Deer Seasons - Shotgun Zone
In the shotgun zone, all hunters afield from November 15-30, and all deer hunters in this zone during other deer seasons, must abide by the following firearm restrictions or use a bow and arrow. Crossbows are legal to use by a person 12 years of age or older during the Nov. 15-30 firearm deer season. Legal firearms are as follows:

A shotgun may have a smooth or rifled barrel and may be of any gauge.

A muzzleloading rifle or black powder handgun must be loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute.

A conventional (smokeless powder) handgun must be .35 caliber or larger and loaded with straight-walled cartridges and may be single- or multiple-shot but cannot exceed a maximum capacity of nine rounds in the barrel and magazine combined.

Exception: See Muzzleloading Deer Seasons above for restrictions during this season. From Nov. 15-30, .22 caliber or smaller rimfire rifles and handguns may be used to kill raccoon while hunting raccoons with dogs between the hours of 7 p.m. and 6 a.m.


License Requirement - Possession of Firearms and Bows and Arrows
A person taking or attempting to take game and in possession of a firearm, slingshot or bow and arrow must have the appropriate hunting license with them and the identification used to purchase that license and exhibit both upon demand of a Michigan Conservation Officer, a Tribal Conservation Officer or any other law enforcement officer.
A hunting license is not required when target practicing or sighting-in a firearm at an identifiable, artificially constructed target, and there is no attempt to take game. A hunting license is not required for the carrying of a pistol for personal protection by a camper, hiker or person engaged in other recreational activities if there is no attempt to take game.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-15 ... --,00.html
 
Another thing you have to understand about Michigan, is that we have three hunting and trapping zones (RED), AND the rifle and shotgun zones (BLUE).

Hunting and Trapping and Rifle/Shotgun Zones

Michigan is divided into Hunting and Trapping Zones 1-2-3. Zone 1 includes all of the Upper Peninsula. The dividing line between Zones 2 and 3 is: From the Lake Michigan shoreline north of Muskegon Lake easterly on Memorial Drive to Ruddiman Drive to Lake Avenue, easterly on Lake Avenue to M-120 in North Muskegon, northeasterly on M-120 to M-20, easterly on M-20 to US-10, easterly on US-10 to Garfield Road in Bay County, northerly on Garfield Road to Pinconning Road, easterly on Pinconning Road to Seven Mile Road, northerly on Seven Mile Road to Lincoln School Road (County Road 25) in Arenac County, northerly on Lincoln School Road to M-61, easterly on M-61 to US-23, easterly on US-23 to center line of AuGres River, southerly along center line of AuGres River to Saginaw Bay, easterly 90 degrees east for 7 miles into Saginaw Bay, then northerly 78 degrees east to the International Boundary.

hunt_zones_20886_7.jpg


Exception: The waterfowl hunting zone lines differ from those above. Refer to the 2009-2010 Waterfowl Hunting Guide for waterfowl zone descriptions. Michigan also is divided into a northern rifle zone where rifles may used for firearm deer hunting and a southern shotgun zone where only shotguns, muzzleloading firearms and certain handguns may be used for deer hunting (see Shotgun Zone Rules). The dividing line between the northern rifle deer hunting zone is as follows: Starting at a point on the Lake Michigan shoreline directly west of M-46, then easterly to M-46, then easterly along M-46 to US-131 at Cedar Springs, southerly on US-131 to M-57, easterly on M-57 to Montcalm Road on the Kent-Montcalm county line, southerly on Montcalm Road and the Kent-Ionia county line to M-44, easterly on M-44 to M-66, northerly on M-66 to M-57, easterly on M-57 to M-52 near Chesaning, northerly on M-52 to M-46, easterly on M-46 to M-47, northerly on M-47 to US-10 west of Bay City, easterly on US-10 to I-75, northerly on I-75 and US-23 to Beaver Road (about 1 mile north of Kawkawlin), easterly to Saginaw Bay, north 50 degrees east to the International Boundary.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-15 ... --,00.html
 
Busta as I said in my post it was a rumor that I was hearing on BH209. As a Hunter Saftey Instructor I see and hear some things that are being talked about by the DNR. At one time they were talking about carrying field test kits to determine what kind of powder you were using. I even had one tell me if he caught someone afield with a savage he would haul them to jail. My question to him was what if it has 777 in it and his response was we will let the courts sort it out.

DC
 
Also remember that Michigan requires a Hunter Safety Certificate for anyone born after Jan 1st 1960 to purchase a license.

DC
 
The way our state is currently being run, there may not be anyone left to enforce whatever laws there are . . .
 
minst7877 said:
Busta as I said in my post it was a rumor that I was hearing on BH209. As a Hunter Saftey Instructor I see and hear some things that are being talked about by the DNR. At one time they were talking about carrying field test kits to determine what kind of powder you were using. I even had one tell me if he caught someone afield with a savage he would haul them to jail. My question to him was what if it has 777 in it and his response was we will let the courts sort it out.

DC

Minst7877,

I have heard some RUMORS as well, but they obviously don't even know the wording of their own regulations.

I hear what you are saying, some of those guys just like to puff their chest out, but they cannot discriminate against the rifle. Half of them couldn't tell smokeless from Black Powder anyways.

They wouldn't have a leg to stand on in a court with Blackhorn 209, it is labeled as a "High Performance Muzzleloading Propellant".

Pyrodex loose powder and Pellets say "The Muzzleloading Propellant", and also says "Smokeless Propellant*".

*Not Nitrocellulose Based

Black Canyon / Clean Shot / APP say "Black Powder Replacement".

Shockey's Gold says "Premium Grade - Black Powder Replacement".

Goex Clear Shot says "Black Powder Substitute for Muzzleloading".

Black Mag'3 says "for Muzzleloaders".

Triple Se7en loose powder and Pellets say "Easy Clean Muzzleloading Propellant".

So technically, any commercially manufactured smokeless powder that could be made safe to substitute for Black Powder would be legal as long as the bottle was labeled as "Black Powder Replacement/Substitute or Muzzleloading Propellant". There is nothing about Nitrocellulose Based Powders being illegal.

That is what it is going to take, is someone using smokeless getting taken to court. Maybe then there would be a determination as to whether "Smokeless" is actually a "Commercially Manufactured Black Powder Substitute". After all Smokeles IS the ORIGINAL Black Powder Substitute, and has been since 1884, when Paul Vieille invented a smokeless gunpowder called Poudre B. I think that it has a few years, maybe 90+ on Pyrodex even.

They still use the Drams Equivalent on the smokeless powder shotgun shell boxes, that is a Black Powder measurement. Sounds like smokeless is being substituted for Black powder to me?

Any takers to challenge this in court? :wink:
 
Busta

I agree totally with what you are saying and it will take a test case to get it sorted out. We have been told that we cannot even mention that there are muzzleloading firearms that are designed for and safe to use with smokeless powder in a Hunter Education Class. Talk about sticking your head in the sand. I tried to educate some of the DNR on history about smokeless powder and pretty much was told to stay out of it. So here I am shooting BH209 out of my Savage during hunting seasons.

DC
 
If I had more money I would be the one to try it. I think the smokeless ban during the regular firearm season in zone 3 is a joke. This is coming from a guy who was initially dead set against smokeless MLing in Michigan at all. I'm still not convinced about it during the ML season but with the advent of BH209 it's becoming a moot point. I would like to see the ML season turned into a primitive season with some fairly strict guidelines as to what can or cannot be used during the season. But again opinions are like assholes.... :lol:
 

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