Bonded vs Non Bonded Shockwaves???

[LFM]

Is there a difference between the Bonded Shockwaves (Blue Tipped) and the Non Bonded Shockwaves (Yellow Tipped) Bullets/Sabots?

Could you use the Non Bonded ones for sighting in and the Bonded ones for hunting would they have much preformance differences between them?

Being it is sort of the off season, I stopped in at the Bass Pro to see if anything new was on their shelves and saw the Bonded and Non Bonded in 200, 250 and 300. Was hoping to find some Triple 7 in the 30 Pellet size but they only had the 50 sized on the shelf... Seems the 30 size is a specialty item unless they don't offer it in this size... I assumed they would since they offer the Pyrodex in both 50 & 30 pellet size...
Anyone know if they do offer it in the 30 grain size or did they??? Seems for some like me I want to try out some different size powder charges and having both the 50 and 30 size you can test some charges with different bullets...

Any input will be welcome on these Bonded and Non Bonded Shockwaves...

Thanks,
LFM

 

[Harry1]

LFM....I think the jury is still out on whether the bonded shock wave is a better bullet or not. Several hunters including myself used the bonded on the hog hunts this spring and all the hogs DIED. (See JCChartboy's entry in the hog hunting section.) It hasn't been out long enough to really know for sure. I know a pile of deer have been killed with the regular version though it is somewhat fragile. But as you know the most important thing is where you put the bullet and it has to shoot accruately to do that. I hope to do some testing with the bonded with big 6...shooting, retreving and comparing the bullets later on this spring. Only time will tell.

 

[LFM]

Harry1,

Thanks I will look forward to your testing results... I have yet to try the Shockwaves though I have two thiry packs of the Non Bonded ones I am going to use to sight in my New Knight Disc Elite when I have the time which should be in the next month or two or atleast by July 4th I am hoping... I also have some of the PR QT's and Dead Centers to try but have heard a lot about the Shockwaves and for the 30 pack seems to be a good way to buy them in bulk... I look forward to your testing...

Regards,
LFM

 

[sheephunterab]

I don't think you can ever sight a rifle in with one bullet and then use a different one for hunting. You could use them for practice or for getting your rifle close when first sighting in but I'd never go afield with a rifle that wasn't sighted in with the bullets I was hunting with.

 

[LFM]

I guess I did not explain myself as clear, the bullets are the same except one is bonded and the other is not. The weigh the same so why would one be so much different than the other... Being I did not see them available (bonded) last year in the 250 grain weight size but this year they are but I was looking late in the hunting season and they did not have them on the shelf only the 300 grain Bonded Shockwave. I understand what you are suggesting but if they look the same profile wise, weigh the same I would think they would shoot just the same but again I was just wondering if any tested them to see if they saw any difference between one over the other... being they look just the same just again one is bonded which might stay together a little better than the ones that aren't...

Just wondering if any have tested them yet... looks like no one has maybe later on this year as we get closer to the hunting season someone might???

Thanks for the post...

LFM

 

[sheephunterab]

Nope, I understood you perfectly LFM and I still would not sight my rifle in with one bullet and hunt with another. They are very similar bullets but they aren't the same and if you talk to folks that have shot them, they shoot differently as well. It may not be a significant diffence in some rifles but it is in others.

 

[choc-dog]

bonded vs. standard shock wave

Well since Hornady is making the bullets may i suggest you call Doug Derner at Hornady 1-800-338-3220. He will tell you the difference.

I have read several posts on this forum that suggest that the bonded
bullet is needed for the 3 pellet shooters. When the impact velocity's
approach 2200 + and bone,shoulder bone etc. is struck some have suggested penetration problems. The bonded bullet should cure this
penetration issue for a humane kill.

My hunting partner was shooting the standard Hornady 240 gr. XTP
pistol bullet in his Encore with 3 pellets. The accuracy was under 1 inch at 100 yards but I told him that bullet's max velocity was about 1800fps
at impact. He was shooting it above 2100 (guess). Anyway he hit a big doe in the shoulder and the bullet blew up. It killed the deer but the entire
shoulder area was shredded. I told him that would happen.

He now shoots the 250Gr. shock-wave and it shoots under 1 1/4 inches.

 

[LFM]

No Plans to shoot them with anything more than maybe 120 grains of T7 but more likely 90 to 110 grains of T7, in a Knight Disc Elite 50 Cal., I have the non bonded 200, and 250 but saw the bonded and wonder what the difference is and would be on Deer, Elk and Blk Bear... Would it be worth going with the Bonded over the Non Bonded... I guess being so new not many have tried them or have much experience with them but I thought maybe some have tested them at the range and wondered if they saw any differences between them... Since I bought the 30 packs of the non bonded and have many of the PR QT's and DC I will have to wait and see which of these works best in my Knight...

Was so hot Friday, Saturday and Sunday I did not get out to shoot any of them but hope the weather cools off some at least high 70's so I might do so before July and August when it will get in the high 80's and again the 90's like last weekend was here in Michigan!!!

It was just to hot to do much of anything and would have had to wait a long time between shots being that HOT ... Maybe next time I am out at my property the temps will be more in the range so I can do some testing... Of the Shockwaves and QT's and the Dead Centers I have in my ML BOX of things to try...

Thanks for the Post... I don't have access to a phone during work currently maybe down the road I will...

Regards,
Mike/LFM

 

[jcchartboy]

To answer your main question...

No the 250 SST's do not have an identical POI as the 250 Bonded Shockwave. I have shot both extensively and the POI of the center of the two groups is always at least an inch apart, often more.

However, they would not preclude sighting in with your hunting load, the 250 Bonded, then practicing with the 250 SST's.

 

[sheephunterab]

LFM...the non-bonded Shockwaves are a great hunting bullet too....between my hunting partners and I we likely have 50 or more kills chalked up with them. Truthfully, I haven't noticed a big difference performance wise between the two...but I guess dead is dead. They'll work just fine for target or hunting. There's nothing wrong with them.

 

[Loggy]

LFM,

I have only shot the nonbonded version aka SST's in the 250 grain. My killing experience is limited...only 3 deer but the 250 SST performed very well with deep penetration, outstanding expansion w/deer dropping in its tracks. All 3 were 10 ML-II kills.

Per my read on this board , Omega (aka Rich) likely has taken the greatest variety & number of Big Game with the 250 SST plus he has recently taken some with the SW's. I know omega has had outstanding experience with the performance of both. Maybe drop him a PM. He has given me very reliable advice in the past.


I personally would sight-in with the bullet you are going to hunt with PLUS practice consistently with that exact bullet. If you want to plink with some other stuff...no big deal. Maybe buy a hundred box of 250 xtps or something just to practise shooting with...why spend the xtra money on ssts?

Best of luck!

 

[LFM]

Loggy,

Thanks for all the great info!!!

I am just getting back into muzzleloading, I was doing it but just to extend my hunting season. I was using a Traditions Lightning Bolt ML. But I had always wanted to own a Knight and was very much interested in the Disc Elite... I started looking for one last fall and decided to get my hands on one new or used and use it as my main hunting rifle starting in 2006.

I had switched to T7 and was using Precision Rifle QT's / Cabela's Extended Range Sabots but never really tested them much since I like all the choices the 50 Cal has available I started with these and also got some of the Dead Centers that PR and Cabela's have because I could never find the T/C Shockwaves locally especially in the 30 packs that some sell them in. So since I have been here I was informed that some company was selling the Disc Elite because it was discontinued and they dumped them with this company that markets such things, and got it (SS and Synthetic Stock) for 250.00 including S&H with rings and a sling. They also had a Simmons 3.5 x10 x 44 Mag Scope for 89.99 which I got for this rifle... been visiting here often asking a lot of questions. Learned they had a Thumbholed Stock that could be convert from the Disc Extreme to an Elite by enlarging the slot in the stock for the lug no extra charge so I picked one up with some other things to get more involved with this MLer. The Traditions is still here but doubt I will use it much... I put together a ML Box with everything someone needs to get the most out of a ML... Now I just got to squeeze in some range time to dial it in and find the best load combination for it... Have both the 200 and 250 Shockwaves 50 and 30 grain T7 Pellets to try some different powder amounts 80, 90, 100,110 & 120 and see what works the best... Just looking for the optimum Bullet/Sabot for it and thought maybe the Bonded might perform better but will start with the Non Bonded since now I have a lot of them and see what works...

Appreciate your info as I do from all others that have posted to this Topic... I will continue to read and learn it can only help...

Regards,
Mike / LFM

 

[choc-dog]

LFM

Just a word of advise while working up loads for your new Knight. If you are going to shoot some 777 loose powder please load in 5 grain increments. (ie 90,95,100,105,110)
While 5 grain increments doesn't look like much difference in the power measurer it does make a difference coming out of the barrel.

Just don't you to miss a possible accutate load

 

[big6x6]

I've personally shot 3 whitetails and an auodad with the 250gr non-bonded SST/Shockwave, 1 using and Omega and the rest were all shot with a 10ML-II. I'll be the first to admit that they bullets didn't hold together as well as I would have liked at times, but in actuality they certainly killed promptly! Ranges varies from about 25yds with the Omega to 148yds. I plan on shooting something with the bonded variety this fall.

 

[jcchartboy]

Chuck,

Any ideas on the velocities of the SST's at impact?

 

[big6x6]

Chuck,

Any ideas on the velocities of the SST's at the distance of the kills?

Gimme a sec!

 

[jcchartboy]

While you are thinking...

The reason I ask is that the 250 SST will be the projectile loaded in the new Hornady SST 20ga shells with the following velocities...

Hornady SST's
Velocity

GA???..0????50??...100??..?.150??....?200
20?..?1800..?.1628??..1470??..1331??..?1212

 

[big6x6]

Chuck,

Any ideas on the velocities of the SST's at impact?

Omega-1750fps at approx 25yds-complete pass thru
Kentucky 11pt-2062fps at approx 60yds-MORE than quartering away-no pass
Texas Auodad-2001fps at approx 75yds-IN the front shoulder-no pass
Alabama 9pt-1715fps at 148yds thru both lungs-complete pass..

The ONE shot I have seen with the 250gr Bonded was JJs hog shot...The range WAS close...I can't remember but the hog really wasn't that huge...the bullet really SHOULD have passed thru... Now the hog DIDN't go ANYWHERE...I can't remember the distance on that one and I don't know JJs MV...probably around 2300fps...

 

[jcchartboy]

Sooo...either the bullets were going too fast and over expanded destroying their BC's once inside the animals..or..They were going too slow and did not have enough energy to pass through...

Any recovered bullets to answer the question?

(Obviously I can guess the answer...but I have to ask)

 

[Mountain Man]

The guys at Dougs have had some long threads with pictures during the last two deer seasons, at least, discussing SST vs. XTP vs. Barnes performance. My take on it, shared by many, I think, is that above a threshhold in the neighborhood of 2000 to 2200 fps, the 250 SST/SW is going to start coming apart and losing a good deal of weight. Even so, with 250 grains of metal, a broadside shot (lungs/heart, no shoulder) still stands a good chance of blowing on through, just with a large wound and a good deal of fragmentation--hence the frequency of instant drops. On moderate quartering away shots above the threshhold, there is often no exit, but bang-flops or short runs (10 to 30 yards) are also common, but with less than amazing blood trails. Below 2000 or so fps impact velocity, pass-throughs, longer wound channels, and picture-perfect mushrooms appear to be the more frequent result.

Obviously, these are generalizations, and anyone who shoots them can probably cite anecdotes that vary, just as with any area of probabilities in a world with variation. I'm not saying this will or always is the result, far from it--just these appear to be the more common than not results at those speeds.

Based upon my view of 250 SST performance, I have chosen to use Barnes bullets in my 10ML where impact velocities are likely to be in the 2200 to 2500 fps range. I am probably in the minority regarding choice of bullet, even among those who agree with the above assessment of performance.

I would not hesitate to use that 20 gauge load, given that muzzle velocities appear to be right in the optimal range for the SST.

Again, all this is a matter of personal opinion, I am not suggesting I am "RIGHT"--no need for this to turn into an all too-common bordering-on-offensive bullet debate. Long and short of it--SST is a great bullet, Barnes is a great bullet, XTP is a great bullet. Probably SW Bonded is, I just haven't seen more than one report on it yet.