Powder measure question

[fordfisher]

Thought I'd try T7 FFFG loose. Bought T/C rifle powder measure and wanted to measure equivalent of two T7 pellets. Read on archives that I could go 15% less with loose powder so I figured 85 gr. by volume. would be about the same to start with. then noticed T/C's measurer instructions say "we are referring to that unit of weight whereby 7000 grains equals one pound." So does that mean that when I measure 85 grains in their vile it is 85 gr. weight or volume? I dont have a scale.

 

[Grouse]

85grns by volume is really close to, two 777 pellets.

 

[Hunt 4 Bucks]

With the volume measure I have used these figures work well. Since two pellets weigh about 60grs, 82grs to 85grs by volume is very close.


T7 Powder Vol. = 80 gr.

Weighed FFFg Triple Seven = 58.6 gr.



T7 Powder Vol. = 90 gr.

Weighed FFFg Triple Seven = 67.3 gr.

 

[sheephunterab]

As pellets produce more velocity per grain in most rifles than loose powder, you'll likely need that extra 15% to get the same velocity. A 100 grains of loose T7 will give you approximately the same velocity as two pellets.

 

[Admin]

A 100 grains of loose T7 will give you approximately the same velocity as two pellets.

Not with Triple Seven. Pyrodex is close between 100 gr of pellets and loose but not 777. 80-85 gr of loose 777 is roughly the same velocity as 2 777 pellets.

 

[Black Bull]

Dido with Patrick.2 t7pellets=2 pyrodex pellets
2 T7 pellet is about 85 gr. of loose T7

 

[Grouse]

A 100 grains of loose T7 will give you approximately the same velocity as two pellets.

Not with Triple Seven. Pyrodex is close between 100 gr of pellets and loose but not 777. 80-85 gr of loose 777 is roughly the same velocity as 2 777 pellets.

He means by weight Patrick. If you weigh a pellet, and duplicate weight with loose 777, the pellet is hotter.

 

[Admin]

A 100 grains of loose T7 will give you approximately the same velocity as two pellets.

Not with Triple Seven. Pyrodex is close between 100 gr of pellets and loose but not 777. 80-85 gr of loose 777 is roughly the same velocity as 2 777 pellets.

He means by weight Patrick. If you weigh a pellet, and duplicate weight with loose 777, the pellet is hotter.

Tom, I was only disputing the section in quotes.

A 100 grains of loose T7 will give you approximately the same velocity as two pellets.

Underlined and bold for emphasis. :wink: Now if he's have said:

A 100 grains of loose Pyrodex will give you approximately the same velocity as two pellets.

It WOULD have been true. It's not for triple seven since the triple seven pellets are roughly equal to pyrodex pellets. 2 triple seven pellets are not roughly equal to 100 gr of triple seven since 777 is 15-20% hotter than Pyrodex.

 

[sheephunterab]

Not in my experience boys and I'm talking volume here. 100 grains of loose Pyrodex will absolutely not gve you the same velocity as two Pyrodex pellets, at least not in an Omega or Encore. Pellets produce more velocity per measured grain than loose.

The same can be said for T7.....but as the two T7 pellets aren't a true 100 grains measured but rather closer to 85 grains...they do produce the same velocity as 100 measured grains of loose T7. But again, the pellets are producing more velocity per measured grain.

I'm not making any comparisons of Pyrodex to T7 here...only pellets to loose and pellets, regardless of Pyrodex or T7 produce more velocity per measured grain than comprable loose.

 

[Admin]

Not in my experience boys and I'm talking volume here. 100 grains of loose Pyrodex will absolutely not gve you the same velocity as two Pyrodex pellets, at least not in an Omega or Encore. Pellets produce more velocity per measured grain than loose.

I've not tested this myself since I did not own a chrono when I shot Pyrodex and I have no intention of buying anymore of it. Your fellow Canadian Ian mcMurchy disagrees with you. Per his book Modern Muzzleloading for today's Whitetails.

Pyrodex RS 1580 FPS
Pyrodeex Pellets 1570 fps

300 gr bullet with chrono 10' from Muzzle. Also this was an average for 10 different rifles using both percussion caps and 209 primers. And before you say that the 209 gives better velocity in a longer barrel, he reports that the 21" barreled T/C Thunderhawk was one of the faster shooting rifles with #11 caps.

The same can be said for T7.....but as the two T7 pellets aren't a true 100 grains measured but rather closer to 85 grains...they do produce the same velocity as 100 measured grains of loose T7.

I can say absolutely your wrong here. I've tested this myself and never got the velocity from pellets that I got from loose powder. 2 777 pellets and 100 gr of loose 777 are not equal. The reason being that Hodgdon made the 777 pellets about the same as the Pyrodex pellets. I do know that the old preproduction 777 pellets were hotter than Pyrodex pellets. Randy got some of them and found they gave better velocity.

But again, the pellets are producing more velocity per measured grain.

By equivelent weight your probably right. I've got no 777 pellets here anymore so I can't confirm or deny this.

 

[sheephunterab]

Not sure what to say Patrick but I've done extensive testing on this as well and pellets always give me more velocity. If you move up to 150 grain loads of Pyrodex, there is 160-180fps difference when shooting pellets vs loose. And, I do own a chrony! All this testing has been done with an Omega or Encore so possibly different rifles give different results but I can tell you for certain that out of my Omega and Encore, through my chrony at 4,000 feet elevation, pellets produce more velocity per grain than does loose. I've had this conversation with the folks at Hodgdon several times and they confirm my results, citing that the construction of the pellet with the hole down the middle is the reason for the increase in velocity with pellets. No approved load will give you more velocity than three plain old Pyrodex pellets from an Omega. 150 grains of loose doesn't come close.

 

[Admin]

Off of Toby Bridges site:

PYRODEX PELLETS

100 gr. (2 50-grain pellets) 250 gr. Hornady .452" SST/XTP 1,685 f.p.s.


PYRODEX "RS/SELECT"
100 gr. 250 gr. Hornady .452" SST/XTP 1,637 f.p.s.


TRIPLE SEVEN PELLETS
100 gr. (2 50-grain pellets) 250 gr. Hornady .452" SST/XTP 1,693 f.p.s.

He doesn't have FFG 777 100 gr comparisons with the 250 SST but with a 260 gr Dead center:

100 Gr. FFg Triple Seven 260 Gr. Precision Rifle Saboted "Dead Center" 1,845 f.p.s.

These are all "100 gr loads". There's also 150 gr loads too, but all I'm concerned with are 100 gr loads. http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/LoadsBallistics.html

 

[sheephunterab]

So according to Toby there is an increase in velocity with pellets? That's what I said and it becomes much more noticeable with 150 grain loads and longer barrels. I stand by what I originally said, pellets produce more volume per measured grain than does loose.

 

[Underclocked]

WHUT? :wink:

 

[Admin]

Look at the 777 numbers. That's what I've been arguing. As for the Pyrodex numbers 50 fps is nothing major. You can get that in shot to shot variation or with a different volumetric powder measure or even chrono to chrono. I tend to agree with Mcmurchy that the pellets and loose are pretty much equal with PYRODEX. He's got better equipment than I do. :lol:

This all started with this quote and you are dead wrong:

A 100 grains of loose T7 will give you approximately the same velocity as two pellets.

 

[sheephunterab]

You were arguing the wrong point then Patrick....I said that 100 grains of loose T7 will give you the same velocity as two Pellets (T7 pellets) I was talking omparible powders. I never compared T7 to Pyrodex.

 

[Admin]

I said that 100 grains of loose T7 will give you the same velocity as two Pellets (T7 pellets)

And that is wrong. You will absolutely not get the same velocity from 2 triple seven pellets as you will from 100 gr of loose 777.

 

[dwhunter]

I said that 100 grains of loose T7 will give you the same velocity as two Pellets (T7 pellets)

And that is wrong. You will absolutely not get the same velocity from 2 triple seven pellets as you will from 100 gr of loose 777.

Patrick I very much agree with you on this.

 

[Black Bull]

Me too, like we said at the start 100gr of loose T7=115gr of pyrodex rs
2T7 pellets =100gr and =2 Pyrodex pellets so 85gr of T7=2 pellet of either T7 or pyrodex pellets

 

[jaybe]

I might be wrong, but I don't think anyone answered the original question

So does that mean that when I measure 85 grains in their vile it is 85 gr. weight or volume? I dont have a scale.

I believe that powder vials are intended to measure volume, not necesarily weight. Black Powder, Pyrodex and 777 all weigh a little different from each other.

Published Black Powder (and substitutes) charges are normally given as volume measurements (what your vial shows).