Need some info concerning BH209 and possable rust problems

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Lane Im sorry if you thought I I was hinting at you did not belive me or doubted what I said as the truth. But this is after all the internet and no greator disributor of BS will you find anywhere else on earth.

I just wanted all who have read what I posted to know I am being a honest as i can be in this matter.

Heck I bought my friend a new barrel, i was not aboput to shell out that much money unless I felt it was nessasary on my part.

Like I said I still love and will continue to use BH209 IF and untill something better comes along. But how much better that BH209 can anyone come up with? I guess we could hope for as good but cheaper?

Be well and best of luck in the coming deer season.
Arthur.
 
Second warning now found on the bottle...

I am sure that it was difficult for Western to change these labels, but I sure give them a lot of points for providing the information users rather staying with the previous information.

BHWarning.jpg
 
Art,

Sorry to hear of this. I once left a BH209 fouled breech plug sit with a liberal ammount Hoppes #9 on it for a couple days. The combination of the hard carbon and the Hoppes actually etched into the breech plug, but only where there was heavy deposits. I have seen Browning shotgun barrels that were left laying on their side with Hoppes in them before that had this same type of etching/corrosion. It actually ate the metal away where the Hoppes pooled up. These shotgun barrels were fired with standard smokeless loads in them.

Another thing I have noticed after shooting several jugs of BH209 in several rifles and breech plug designs, is if you clean right away while the bore is still warm, it only takes a couple minutes. If you let the fouling sit on there for any extended ammount of time the breech end of the barrel will have hard carbon deposits, presumably from the 209 primers, that can be much more difficult to remove. This may require a bore brush with a solvent dampened patch, and some elbow grease. This does vary from rifles/breech plug designs, and type of 209 primers used.

I am sure we don't have all the answers yet, but thanks for passing on the information. Clean 'em if you shoot'em.



Sabotloader,

The information you are providing in the pictures has been printed on the labels since last year, it is nothing new, at least to me. Sure it is different from the first bottles, but has been there for a year.

Just want people to be aware this is not a new revelation, they have had that same label for a year now. Wish I had a camera here to take some pics, but my daughter has it at college. Oh, that's right, it is her camera!

Last year I shot a buck on opening day, reloaded and left it for two weeks, fired it off with no signs of any corrosion. I have also left fired rifles for several days with no problems. My rifles are SS, so that might offer a bit of insurance.

Bottom line for me: If I use any conicals with lubed (water-based)grooves, I clean up as soon as possible. If the humidity is high, I clean up as soon as possible. If I shoot 209 primers with reduced charges, anything other than Fed 209A, CCI 209M, Win W209, Rem STS, I clean up as soon as possible.

IMO, the primers used could be a contributing factor, the muzzleloading primers will work in some rifles, but you do not get as good of a burn with them. The better the burn, the less residue left in the bore to collect or trap any moisture. If you want to test this theory, just shoot BH209 with a .25 ACP or #11 igniton rifle, you will see what I mean. The lower charged ML primer to a lesser extent, but the same principles apply. If your flame channel is plugged, this makes for much reduced heat and flame getting to the powder, and I feel is also a contributor to poor burn. The very loose bullet/sabot combinations also contribute to a poor burn of the powder. I have had several VERY loose fitting saboted bullets fire without hesitation, however the velocities tell me that I may not be getting a complete burn using heavy charges with light bullets.

I have shot cases of BH209 in 9 different rifles and 1 shotgun, 3 of the rifles with several different breech plugs, 1 rifle with 5 different (styles/types) breech plugs using 11 different 209 primers, #11 caps, .25 ACP plug with standard and magnum primers. I think I have seen a lot more than the average, but I know I don't have all the answers either.
 
Busta

As you already know I have not shot near as much Bh as you and others but I have shot it and I have left bores un-attended for a couple of weeks. I have never had a problem either in the the blued Triumph or any of my stainless guns.

I believe that Western is scratching their heads trying to figure out why and which guns are more prone to the collection of moisture.

Could one of the reason be that most ML shooters strip their bore of any lubricants prior to shooting at least shooting sabots? Then the actual shooting further strips the bore of any protectants, so in effect the bore is truly raw metal and very suseptible to moisture damage... if not attended to right after shooting.

I am one of those using M X-treme BC and I really do not strip my bores before shooting - I just foul the barrel run a dry patch then begin shooting.
Even while hunting the bore is not completly stripped...

doe no?
 
quote""Lane and other doubters,
All I can tell you is I confirmed as compleatly truthfull that my friend went shooting on Tuesday Oct 6th and on Saturday morning Oct 10th he removed his Encore to clean it only to find the bore badly rusted. ""quote

Then the obvious answer is a simple one. There was moisture in that barrel and it could have been avoided by cleaning and oiling properly before storage.

I dont care if manufacurer XYZ invents a new powder tomorrow and claims it leaves the barrel cleaner with each shot...Im still cleaning and oiling that bore before it gets stored. Rusted/corroded bores are avoidable and due to outright laziness and negligence on the owners part.
 
I have a blued Omega and hunt on a fouled barrel. For the last CO. muzzleloader season I hunted in the rain for 4 days. 2 days I had the CVA covers on, the last two days in the rain I didn't. After 4 days of a lot of moisture, I noticed some surface rust inside the end of the muzzle.

Under those conditions with a blued barrel, any blued barrel would form rust I believe. The night of the 4th day in the rain I shot it off to clean and reload it. When I shot it, it didn't miss a beat. That BH 209 fired off without any problems and the barrel cleaned up. The rust came out and didn't cause any permenant damage.
 
Seems like there might be an opportunity for a test here - especially if you bought him a new barrel.

Scrub all the rust out of the old barrel and fire it with BH209. Then take it out of the gun and check it every day until it rusts (if it rusts)

Do it again, but this time run just an oil patch through after shooting and see how long it takes to rust (again, if).

That would tell if the BH209 was the actual cause, or if the lack of oil was the cause.
 
Maybe Im too old school having grown up shooting real black powder, but if it makes smoke when I pull the trigger...I clean and oil once I get home. If Im gonna plop down $300 or more for a gun, Ill be darned if Im going to let the barrel sit without a coat of oil in it...not even for a day.

Bingo!!!!

My muzzleloader guns are cleaned the day they are fired. Have seen centerfire rifles damaged by rust from leaving them uncleaned for a few days.
 
BrewerGeorge said:
Seems like there might be an opportunity for a test here - especially if you bought him a new barrel.

Scrub all the rust out of the old barrel and fire it with BH209. Then take it out of the gun and check it every day until it rusts (if it rusts)

Do it again, but this time run just an oil patch through after shooting and see how long it takes to rust (again, if).

That would tell if the BH209 was the actual cause, or if the lack of oil was the cause.

There was a test done here when BH first came out. A bunch of guys pitched in and a CVA Wolf was purchased for the test. You can probably find the thread if you search. That was over a year ago.
 
Cajun, could you help me out with a few more spacifics to help narrow my search? I have done several searches, but all have returned over 200 posts each and I would like to shorten the amount of time I spend looking for the tread you spoke of.


Thanks,
Arthur.
 
Cajun, never mind I found it.
Jist was a blued steel CVA Wolf was shot with BH209 and left uncleaned for one month and experienced no rust what so ever.
The test was done in Athens AL. A state not known for its dry low humidity climate.

This only deepens my compleat puzzlement on how my friends bore rusted so quickly.
 
Art

Here is the thread...

http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB ... ight=bh209

But I am not sure it proves anything anymore... Not all of the gun bore are the same nor do they act the same...

Western at one time was quite sure there was not a problem with bore rusting and BH residue... Today they are moved from that stance to the point of saying it is posible.

The real thing to know is what is the make up of the residue... if it in combination with moisture forms some sort of acidic compund it certainly could be a problem. Nitogren esters are strong oxodizers as defined by their definition (Most nitrate compounds are strong oxidizing agents ) Is oxidation in a bore a problem?
 
Thanks sabotloader.
I have reached the point with this delema where I feel it is much more simple a task to continue as I always have to clean my ML asap after using BH209 than to try to determine why my friends bore rusted in the first place.

The only thing left for me to do now is try to remove as much of the pitting as I can from my "new" Encore barrel.

As I have never had to do this and have no idea how to, I will be posting a request for help on directions on how to remove pitting from a barrel.

As far as I am concerned, this matter has been lade to rest.
 
ART338WM

Lapping the barrel... just do a search for lapping....

Personally, and if it were me - i would send it (the barrel) to TC and have them lap it for you. I sent a pitted 54 cal renegade barrel that I got off ebay and they lapped no charge and sent it back to me. They have the equipment to uniformly lap the barrel to a smoothy equal diameter...

But if you want to lap it your self there are several methods that will work...
 
Is this what the indrustry has come to?? :shock:

You pay good money for a gun,,,,you shouldn't hafta do all this!
 
I have a similar situation as Art with a Knight DISC Elite that I left too long with BH209 fouling. Pulled it off the shelf and noticed rust in the barrel. Cleaned out the rust and there are several portions with visible pitting. Probably caused by condensation from the residue left in the barrel and temperature fluctuations in my dry, but usually cool basement. I remember a time that I brought it upstairs to shoot on a hot day and there was heavy condensation. Anyway, the rust and subsequent pitting were a reality. I had never shot anything but BH209 to this point.

I?ll take full responsibility for the problem as I should have really know better than to leave the fouling in the barrel, regardless of the claims and the fact that it seemed fine after similar periods. Really irritates me that I took a .75 MOA rifle and turned it into a 1.5 MOA rifle. All I would have needed to do was swap a few times with Hoppes.

I have zero interest in proving a case for or against BH 209 and won?t spend a lot of time analyzing the situation. As I said, the problem could have been avoided. I will say that it?s doubtful I?ll be able to trust the stuff in order to leave without cleaning any longer than I would with Pyrodex, 777, or even black. I already wrecked one rifle. I bought a pound of 777 and it seems to be fine. No big deal to run a spit patch every shot. I?ll use BH 209 again if I can realize accuracy gains over 777. Just won?t leave for extended periods without at least running a patch down. I don?t worry about the carbon fouling in the breach and that is what is time consuming to clean.

I?ve tried a few things to remove the pitting. First, I tried aggresively scrubbing with a bore brush. Then, I went with some Rem 40x on a tight patch around the bore brush. All of this scrubbing had very little effect.

As a last ditch I tried a lapping kit from Beartooth Bullets. This lapping kit is a lot of work. I followed the instructions for the lapping kit faithfully. First, I rolled all 20 of the .50 Minie balls in the lapping compound between two steel plates. Then, I shot them all with 20gr FFF Goex, cleaning between shots. This was a real hassle as these are BHN 12 bullets and were a more than snug fit. I was determined to get the job done and it took probably 2 hours to load, shoot, and clean for these 20 shots. I did have some success during this process. The lapping bullets smoothed over pitting and even dug up some rust. I could still clearly see the pitting, just not as deep. After the shooting the instructions said to impregnate a tight patch with the lapping compound and run up and down 100 times. I did 400. Didn?t seem much change. I can really see extra wear in the last inch of barrel. May have smoothed things out to reduce fouling. Need more testing to prove anything really.

The good news of all this is that I still have a perfectly respectable rifle. It was really windy yesterday and I only shot 1 group at 100 yards and that was a horizontally stringing 1.75? group. Probably going to be near 1? on a calm day. This is with 110gr 777 and the 200gr T/C .50/.40 SW. Bad news is that the rifle was shooting about 1.5? before I invested all this time and effort to remove the pitting. Additionally, as long as I know the pitting is present it is going to irritate me knowing that I?m not at full potential. I might give it to a family member that is not as anal about these things as I am!

Pretty much in the market for another DISC Elite. Maybe a .45 this time since the 200gr .50/.40 shoots best in my .50 anyway. At least this is a $200 rifle and not a $200 BARREL like an Encore.
 
T7 will do the same thing to a bore. Trust me, I know from experience and not a good one.
 
Thanks again to all who posted thier thoughts and experiences. I will give T/C s CS and have them lapp it a try, as I have nothing at this point to loose.

Be well all and keep er clean.
Arthur.
 

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