New Savage ML, accuracy problems

[Torque]

I have recently acquired a Savage ML-II. I mounted a Leupold VX-I 2-7x33, got some MMP HPH orange, HPH Green, and HPH black sabots, cast 300g .429 bullets and 340g. .458 bullets. I also bought some 240g .430 Hornady xtp pistol pullets to try just in case. AA 5744, and IMR 4759 powders were used.

Using the load data supplied with the rifle and the load data from Doug's message board, I started to work.
No matter which bullet/powder combination I used, I could get no better than a 6" group at 100 yards. So, I remounted the scope, no difference. I changed the scope for one I knew was good. No difference. My question is, what else could it be? I cleaned the gun multiple times. The action screws were tight. The scope mounts and rings were tight.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[rjhans53]

Make sure your front base is not being hammered by the recoil lug ( I had to use a dremel on my front base to get it to sit clear of the recoil lug, next try 300 gr .458's in a harvester crushed rib it's the only load mine will shoot

 

[Davexx1]

Where are you located? Exremely warm air temps and/or not allowing the barrel to cool in between shots is said to soften the sabots which can cause them to blow out and/or deform when using the high pressure smokeless powder. The deformation or complete failure of the plastic sabot will cause accuracy and consistentcy issues. Try to find and inspect your sabots after firing.

I too have consistency problems with my SS 10ML-II when using 4759 powder, WW 209 primer, with 250 grain TC Shockwaves or the 250 grain XTPs. I am also in Central Florida where temps outside are frequently in the 85-90 degree range during the muzz deer hunting season. I have read articles that indicate such warm temps definitely soften the plastic sabots, but what is one to do?

If this is the issue with the sabots, I would think the sabot manufacturers would be changing to and using a plastic material that is less sensitive to the heat.

Dave

 

[paia]

I had a love/hate relationship with my Savage, but did learn a bunch of stuff.

Heat can definitely affect sabots and the smokeless powder heats barrels up more than black powder. Many folks wait up to 15 or 20 minutes between shots if they are shooting their Savages in temps above 70.

Generally speaking Savages do not seem to do well with .44 bullets and green MMP or Harvester sabots. I don't know why, but mine would not shoot .44 bullets well at all and I tried all kinds of sabots and 4 or 5 different powders.

I did not have any luck with .458 bullets and the orange MMP sabots either, but some folks do.

BTW, if your cast bullets have grease grooves they may cause a problem--the sabots "imprint" on the grooves and then the sabot sticks and does not separate smoothly from the bullet in flight. Smooth sided bullets, like the SST's seem to shoot well and I think it is because the sabot falls away smoothly and consistently despite the increased pressure and velocity of shooting smokeless powder.

Try 300 grn. .452 Hornady XTP's (NOT the Mags) with Harvester SB or Crush Ribs, and MMP HPH 12's and 24's. My best luck was with Reloder7 powder.

Hornady 250 & 300 SST's shot well too and the 250 grn .452 XTP.

Just my .02 Have fun and keep experimenting.

 

[gobbler getter]

my savage ML-11 loves hornady 250 grn. xtp in a harvester short black sabot on top of 67 grn. of IMR 4198. and its been HOT here lately

 

[CORVAIR]

torque,

Another thing other than the front scope base/recoil lug issue is the length of the scope base screws. If the screw/s are too long they will bottom out giving the illusion that the base screw is tight to the action. Some guys have had too shorten the base screws(front base) using a grinder or dremel to take off a couple of threads so that the base then is secured to the action.

I also agree with the XTP's having to be .452 dia. and non-Mag version. All Savages are factory tested using this bullet, MMP sabot and with 42-43 gr SR4795. The Savage does not shoot the Mag version very well at all.

This bullet/load combination will typically deliver 1moa or slightly larger. With multiple shots fired you will also need to allow proper barrel cooling between shots(10-15 min).

Breech plug vent liner orifice could also be a culprit, so if you havn't already, install a new ventliner.

If you want to completely eliminate the scope/rings/bases as the source shoot the above load with iron sights.

If there are still problems after all of the above, contact Joe DeGrande at Savage Arms. He may have you send it back to Savage for testing and a fix.

 

[Torque]

torque,

Another thing other than the front scope base/recoil lug issue is the length of the scope base screws. If the screw/s are too long they will bottom out giving the illusion that the base screw is tight to the action. Some guys have had too shorten the base screws(front base) using a grinder or dremel to take off a couple of threads so that the base then is secured to the action.

I also agree with the XTP's having to be .452 dia. and non-Mag version. All Savages are factory tested using this bullet, MMP sabot and with 42-43 gr SR4795. The Savage does not shoot the Mag version very well at all.

This bullet/load combination will typically deliver 1moa or slightly larger. With multiple shots fired you will also need to allow proper barrel cooling between shots(10-15 min).

Breech plug vent liner orifice could also be a culprit, so if you havn't already, install a new ventliner.

If you want to completely eliminate the scope/rings/bases as the source shoot the above load with iron sights.

If there are still problems after all of the above, contact Joe DeGrande at Savage Arms. He may have you send it back to Savage for testing and a fix.

Alright, I think I have everything worked out. The front scope base was touching the recoil lug. After some careful grinding, the base no longer touches. I ground the front base screw down also just to be careful.

After finding some .452 TC bullets (look suspiciously like the Hornady ssts) inside MMP sabots, with 42g of 5744 I have gotten the groups down to 2". So, at this point, I think it is simply load development to tighten it up. I also had the same grouping with .452 300g Hornady xtps with 41g of 5744.

The breechplug was cleaned and a new vent liner was installed prior to the initial testing, so these should not have been a problem.

 

[Bloodtrailer]

Try this sight follow to new board all savage smokeless and great info. read tips section then ask questions great group VERY HELPFUL http://dougva.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Savage

 

[CORVAIR]

Excellant Torque!

That 300 gr. XTP and 5744 is a good load. Anywhere from 41-44 gr and w/experimentation one load will probably do better than the 2" group you got.

Youre on track now. Good job.

 

[mikew]

Have been through it all guys and here is what I came up with. PRbullet.com out of Manitoba has done some extensive Savage shooting. 1) pressures from Smokeless are pretty high and they suggest using a MSB(magnum sub base) to make sure the sabot will seat on the powder. I have shot with and with out the sub base and there is a difference in grouping. 2) proper bullet for the twist rate of the Savage(1:24) is another factor. 3) Pillar bedding can cause a left or right impact and needs to be checked by a gunsmith. All this info is on the prbullet.com web site. The load I currently shoot is 1) 235grn QT polymer tip spitzer. 2) magnum sub base 3) 40grns of IMR4759. I have gone higher and lower on powder. Lower powder had good groups but no range, higher powder had range but bad groups. Need to work in .5grn and .2grn increments. With the above load I'm consistently shooting 1in groups at 150yds. There is only a 2in drop from 100yds to 150yds. Next spring I'll start working on the 200yd load in .2grn increments. Hope this helps somebody. By the way my freind is shooting a Traditions Pursuit/(1:28) twist rate, 220grn Dead Center(also made by PRBullet) 100grns 777 with 1in groups at 150yds.

 

[mikew]

Have been through it all guys and here is what I came up with. PRbullet.com out of Manitoba has done some extensive Savage shooting. 1) pressures from Smokeless are pretty high and they suggest using a MSB(magnum sub base) to make sure the sabot will seat on the powder. I have shot with and with out the sub base and there is a difference in grouping. 2) proper bullet for the twist rate of the Savage(1:24) is another factor. 3) Pillar bedding can cause a left or right impact and needs to be checked by a gunsmith. All this info is on the prbullet.com web site. The load I currently shoot is 1) 235grn QT polymer tip spitzer. 2) magnum sub base 3) 40grns of IMR4759. I have gone higher and lower on powder. Lower powder had good groups but no range, higher powder had range but bad groups. Need to work in .5grn and .2grn increments. With the above load I'm consistently shooting 1in groups at 150yds. There is only a 2in drop from 100yds to 150yds. Next spring I'll start working on the 200yd load in .2grn increments. Hope this helps somebody. By the way my freind is shooting a Traditions Pursuit/(1:28) twist rate, 220grn Dead Center(also made by PRBullet) 100grns 777 with 1in groups at 150yds.